New Secondaries for Richmond Borough?

[BayJay]

Richmond Council recently published a White Paper outlining plans for Secondary education in the borough (cabnet.richmond.gov.uk/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=23719). They want new 6th forms in every school, and would need to decrease current Yr7 intakes to accomodate that. To offset those decreases they are talking about creating two new secondary schools. One of those new schools would be a Roman Catholic school.

The Roman Catholic community in the borough are currently disadvantaged by the "link" system (www.st-marys.richmond.sch.uk/Newsletter%20Link%20letter%20for%202011%20links%20(2).pdf). Because the Catholic primaries are not linked to any secondaries in the borough, their children tend to go to a combination of out-of-borough Catholic secondaries (which are mostly rated as Outstanding), grammar schools and private schools, though some of the girls do go to Waldegrave, which is not part of the link system. Note that there is no reason, in principle, why the Catholic Secondaries couldn't be linked to local community schools, but because many of their children have other options, they simply don't meet the "25% rule" required to form a link. (See an example set of transfer figures at www.st-james.richmond.sch.uk/Admin/Uploads/Docs/StJamesSchool_Parents_NewsLetter_270910.pdf).

This raises several questions in my mind:

1. Does the problem necessarily need to be solved by providing a Catholic Secondary, or are there alternative solutions that would benefit the community as a whole (e.g. reforming the link system)?
2. Does the majority of the Catholic community specifically want to be educated separately from the rest of us, or is it the case that, like everyone else, they simply want an outstanding education for their children, and find that the Catholic route is often the best way of achieving that?
3. If Catholics had more options for transferring to outstanding community schools locally (as many already do, to Waldegrave), would they choose those options over travelling to a single-faith school in a neighbouring borough?
4. I accept that there will always be very religious people who want to segregate themselves, but would I be right in asserting that there are also large numbers of Catholics who would be happy to attend community schools, provided that gave them the same level of academic excellence that can be found in many Catholic options?
5. If a new Catholic secondary school is created, it is likely to have an entrance policy that requires a priest's reference (as per the majority of existing Catholic schools). How do people feel about that?
6. If a state-funded Catholic School is created in the borough, would non-Catholic parents also like the option of sending their children there, provided they weren't barred by the admission system?

I'd be interested to hear your opinions!

Being new to the borough, and with two children in an RC primary, I am very keen on finding a suitable secondary school for my children. The oldest is in year 5. I understand that we are in the catchment area of only one RC secondary, in Hounslow, now that both Cardinal Vaughan and the Oratory have made changes to their admissions policy and cathcment area.

My nearest secondary school require a substantial police force in the streets at home time. I am therefore quite reluctant to send my children there.

Personally I would consider both a non Faith school or private, if the school seem right for my children. However, I like a school with a Christian ethos.

I am following this with interest.

Hello QuintessentialDead, and welcome to the borough! You'll find everyone else is very keen on finding a suitable secondary school for their children too, which is at the root of all this controversy.

If you check risc website there is an update on catholic primary school. As I understand it there are sufficient catholic places St primary level in the borough which is Not the case for inclusive primary places.

But would not a new Catholic school free up other school places in the borough?

I have just today been on a school open day, and there were nearly 1000 applications for 200 places.

It is a shame one cannot have both. Clearly there is a need for schools!

"But would not a new Catholic school free up other school places in the borough?"

Not necessarily, as out of Borough Catholics will get priority and Clifden Road is not so very far from the Richmond/Hounslow boundary. Besides, it does seem a bit unfair that all the community primaries are having to expand to three (or even four) form entry whilst yet another nice small one form entry Catholic primary gets set up. It really doesn't make any sense to me, surely if they need more Catholic places they should be inflicting adding bulge classes on all the existing schools first? Just like they are at all the non-Catholic schools.

I'm a bit confused as to why you consider it to be a bad thing that you are only in catchment of the one Catholic secondary? I assume it is St Mark's that you are talking about. In which case it's a fantastic school and of a standard that most people in the Richmond Borough would be delighted about having the choice of. As BayJay has already said, though, concerns about the quality of some of the schools is something shared by everyone.

I hadn't heard that the Oratory was changing its admissions policy - when is that due to be implemented?

QuintessentialDead, perhaps it would free up some spaces, and perhaps it wouldn't. The council is certainly claiming that it would, but haven't published any numbers to prove it. No consultation has been done to determine whether those Catholics who currently choose community secondaries such as Waldegrave do so because they believe in inclusive education at secondary level, or because they couldn't get a place in a Catholic school. The council is simply assuming the latter. Similarly, no consultation has been done to determine other types of demand in the borough that may be equal to, or greater than, the demand for a Catholic school (remember the Catholic community has a strong leadership behind it that can lobby on behalf of its community, but other groups, such as parents of boys, don't).

What would your view be on the question of an inclusive Catholic school, i.e. one that ringfenced a certain percentage (say 50%) of its places for the local community? As discussed earlier in this thread, that is the direction that Church of England schools are moving in, and many (but not all) people who support the RISC campaign would welcome a Catholic school wth that sort of entrance policy.

My son is in year 5, and from what I understand, The Oratory will no longer be an option when he is due to go to secondary. The only Catholic school we are in catchment of, is Gunnersbury. I am sure it is a good school, but it is really far away.

My local secondary is a school that this is said about "Her Majesty's Chief Inspector is of the opinion that the school no longer requires significant improvement. .....School now provides a satisfactory education for its students. "

Great. I want better for my children than just "satisfactory".

It seems our choice is limited to a school that has just come out of special measures, or a school that is miles away. There are plenty of good schools in Richmond, but due to Link and Catchment and lack of siblings, our options seem rather limited.

BayJay, to answer your question, I would be positive to a school that is inclusive, as long as the school keeps it Catholic ethos, and that all the parents regardless of their Faith or lack thereof, are keen to support the school, PTA and school life.

But the question is, would the parents of non-catholic children support the liturgial events? Would they insist that the children are kept out of Harvest mass, or other significant events that otherwise the whole school would participate in? Because if they dont, it is really ruining it for the rest.
Would they want to fund raise for Catholic charities?

QuintessentialDead, my own children go to a CofE primary school that has 30% open places. All parents sign an agreement to support the ethos of the school. It is very oversubscribed, and people wouldn't apply to go there if they weren't happy with the ethos on offer. If it was undersubscribed, and non-CofE families were only allocated spaces there because they were unable to get places elsewhere then the situation could be very different. Nobody wants to feel like a second class citizen in their own school.

My children's friends include Christians, Muslims, Jews, Seikhs, and children from non-faith families. None of them are withdrawn from RE, or other events. However, they are encouraged to talk openly about their own beliefs in RE lessons, and the children are taught to listen respectfully to other views. That is a skill that they will benefit from for the rest of their lives. There are also many Catholic families at the school, some of whom have signed the RISC petition.

I went to a Catholic secondary school myself, back in the 1980s when their admissions weren't so "controlled", so I certainly would consider it for my own children, even though we aren't Catholic. Clifden Rd would be our nearest Secondary, and in future our only other alternative may be Twickenham Academy, which is also currently rated as 'satisfactory'. It may improve, but that's not guaranteed.

Oh, I totally understand your wish to send your child to a better school than one just out of special measures and that's now simply satisfactory. I suppose my point is simply that it's probably the hobson's choice of many in your locale, not just the Catholics. Hopefully the link issue will be sorted out, although I do fear that if the links get removed the catchments of Orleans, Teddington and Grey Court will shrink significantly.

I personally can't see why having non-Catholics in a school needs to ruin the Catholic ethos for everyone else. I was educated at private Catholic schools which were always happy to take non-Catholics. Everyone took part in the life of the school whatever their backgrounds.

Having said that, I can see a potential issue if this new school was to be a more inclusive Catholic school. It would have a more socially selective catchment than the nearby academy due to its location. Therefore it may possibly get people applying who aren't just non-Catholics, but are positively anti-Papist. This is why I think it's essential for the council to address the shortage of good quality schools for the 90% of children who aren't Catholics first. I suspect most people in the Borough haven't ever thought too much about the selection policies of existing Catholic primaries; for the simple reason that ALL the primaries are pretty uniformly excellent.

The way I see it, the borough needs more than just ONE new secondary school, then. If non-Catholics are struggling to find a good secondary school for their children, and Catholics are having the same struggle and have to send their children miles away out of the borough for schools, it really just shows the precarious needs for good schooling!

After all, there are more mainstream schools to chose from than there are Catholic schools!

Like I say, I am not against an inclusive Catholic school. I just want the religious life to be upheld.

Most of the parents at my childrens school are exploring all the options, not just Catholic secondaries. I can see why most people would be against a minority getting a brand new school "just for themselves".

Indeed, there needs to be another new school. But with resources limited, and given that it wouldn't exclude Catholics - it should be the priority.

I am in favour of Church schools. My concern is that the nature of their admissions policies means that they lose sight of what Christianity should be about. It becomes a game to be played. Just the fact that someone has chosen a Catholic school should be reason enough for a child to be able to go to one.

I think the problem is that just because there is a greater number of mainstream schools, it doesn't increase choice in any meaningful way because of catchments. You complain that you have the choice of a recently failing school or an excellent boys school that's a bit of a trek. It's not a great choice, granted, but it's better than that of your atheist neighbour - isn't it?

There are some numbers in a freedom of info request on RISC's website (useful links). These suggest that on average 200 RuT RC primary pupils find places in catholic schools out of the borough and about 30 have gone to Richmond secondaries (with an upward trend due to rising birth rates). That suggests to me that the biggest beneficiaries of a new catholic will be Catholics in Hounslow who will have more choice. But little difference for Richmond schools. It's incorrect to say you have a choice of 8 schools if you are not catholic - you are restricted by (a) link school (b) gender (c) proximity. If your only choice is Grey Court - which has a real buzz, restored reputation, best GCSE results for 16 years - you have one more choice than many.

Muminlondon - it hasn't escaped my notice that the new school is within a couple of miles of St Mark's and Gumley House! Even Gunnersbury isn't much further. How lovely to be a Catholic living somewhere in the middle of all of them!

QuintessentialDead, Richmond council have said that they have no plans for any other new schools in the foreseeable future. The 3 academies are undersubscribed, so there will be no money for new schools until they are full. Even a Free School was recently turned down because they could not demonstrate enough evidence of a lack of school places in the borough.

A lot of effort is going into improving the academies, and the council is hoping that more borough families will choose them in the future. However, nobody wants to be 'forced' to go there as their only option. That's another reason why many people resent the ring-fencing of the Clifden school for a select few.

Gumley seems to be the local school for many Richmond Catholic girls, from both sides of the river. But while popular oversubscibed popular schools are a self-fulfilling prophecy the opposite can happen - if it becomes easier to get into Gumley, will popularity (or even attainment) fall? Not Richmond council's problem.

It would make a big difference if the children at the three CE primaries linking with Orleans had another choice, e.g at a faith academy with a Christian ethos as they are already used to that?

That's what could free up places at Richmond schools. What the council fears is the effect on nearby academies - having no choice is what keeps families taking the risk there.

Sorry, I crossed your post BayJay but same point about the academies.

So if there was a general Christian secondary catering to both denominations, and others, space would be freed up in general for those those who are atheists? Orleans is an Outstanding school. But does not link with our school, and we are outside catchment, so not an option for us....

QuintessentialDead, the Link System is being reviewed, so may be abolished for current Year 5s and beyond. A consultation is due to start on that soon.

I wouldn't agree with your statement that "a general Christian secondary catering to both denominations, and others, space would be freed up in general for those those who are atheists". Many atheists (and other non-Christians) choose to send their children to church schools that have Open admissions (and where people feel those admission policies are not open enough they sometimes take matters into their own hands and do what they need to do to get a Foundation place). There will always be people who are adamant that they don't want to use church schools, and enough community schools need to be provided to cater for them. However, people choose schools for other reasons than religion. There are many people at my own children's school who chose it because of its location, facilities and reputation rather than because of its faith ethos, and in my view there is nothing wrong with that, so long as they accept the faith ethos. Most faiths, and other philosophies have enough in common that people rub along just fine. A Humanist at a faith school may not share other children's belief in God, but they would share other core values (e.g. treating people as they would like to be treated), and at least by attending the same school they may learn to understand why it is that other children do believe in God.

Linked schools: I have published on the borough Lib Dem website (which I edit) an article describing the likely effects on Orleans School of scrapping the linked schools policy: twickenhamlibdems.co.uk/en/article/2011/523396/abolishing-the-linked-schools-system-who-gains-who-loses-a-forecast-for-orleans-park

Thanks ChrisSquire. In the interests of housekeeping (and because its difficult to find) here is some info on how to embed a link.

I've posted too much to put it all again on this thread, but come and have a look at my views over here

Would be really interested to know if anyone else, particularly those on 'the other side of the borough' share my opinion

For info, Richmond Council has published a detailed report about the Linked School Policy.

Here's something interesting. Another new Free School is interested in setting up in Richmond. Looks like it has inclusive admissions, though presumably the ethos wouldn't appeal to everyone.

There's lots of coverage on the Catholic School issue in this week's Richmond and Twickenham Times. There's an article on Page 2, and letters on page 29.

Plus, on page 13, there's also some coverage of the excellent exam results achieved this year by the three LBRuT academies (Twickenham Academy, Hampton Academy and Richmond Park Academy).