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Secondary education

New Secondaries for Richmond Borough?

171 replies

BayJay · 23/02/2011 20:56

Richmond Council recently published a White Paper outlining plans for Secondary education in the borough (cabnet.richmond.gov.uk/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=23719). They want new 6th forms in every school, and would need to decrease current Yr7 intakes to accomodate that. To offset those decreases they are talking about creating two new secondary schools. One of those new schools would be a Roman Catholic school.

The Roman Catholic community in the borough are currently disadvantaged by the "link" system (www.st-marys.richmond.sch.uk/Newsletter%20Link%20letter%20for%202011%20links%20(2).pdf). Because the Catholic primaries are not linked to any secondaries in the borough, their children tend to go to a combination of out-of-borough Catholic secondaries (which are mostly rated as Outstanding), grammar schools and private schools, though some of the girls do go to Waldegrave, which is not part of the link system. Note that there is no reason, in principle, why the Catholic Secondaries couldn't be linked to local community schools, but because many of their children have other options, they simply don't meet the "25% rule" required to form a link. (See an example set of transfer figures at www.st-james.richmond.sch.uk/Admin/Uploads/Docs/StJamesSchool_Parents_NewsLetter_270910.pdf).

This raises several questions in my mind:

  1. Does the problem necessarily need to be solved by providing a Catholic Secondary, or are there alternative solutions that would benefit the community as a whole (e.g. reforming the link system)?
  2. Does the majority of the Catholic community specifically want to be educated separately from the rest of us, or is it the case that, like everyone else, they simply want an outstanding education for their children, and find that the Catholic route is often the best way of achieving that?
  3. If Catholics had more options for transferring to outstanding community schools locally (as many already do, to Waldegrave), would they choose those options over travelling to a single-faith school in a neighbouring borough?
  4. I accept that there will always be very religious people who want to segregate themselves, but would I be right in asserting that there are also large numbers of Catholics who would be happy to attend community schools, provided that gave them the same level of academic excellence that can be found in many Catholic options?
  5. If a new Catholic secondary school is created, it is likely to have an entrance policy that requires a priest's reference (as per the majority of existing Catholic schools). How do people feel about that?
  6. If a state-funded Catholic School is created in the borough, would non-Catholic parents also like the option of sending their children there, provided they weren't barred by the admission system?

    I'd be interested to hear your opinions!
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ChrisSquire · 12/05/2015 18:57
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BayJay · 27/11/2011 18:24

The Mumsnet Local thread on this topic has reached 1000 messages, and so is now full. I've started a new Mumsnet Local thread here to continue that converstation.

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fickencharmer · 08/11/2011 17:26

Settle down please. Can you stop mumbling. Please switch that mobile phone off at once. Thank you now I will begin. Have you all handed in your homework. Did any of you watch Educating Essex the other night?

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BayJay · 07/11/2011 21:02

hamptonhillbilly, hello again. There are only two threads. This one is in the Secondary School Forum. The other one is here, in Mumsnet Local. Unfortunately its not possible to link to a particular post, but look for Mon 07-Nov-11 20:24:26.

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hamptonhillbilly · 07/11/2011 20:38

oops no I'm sorry BayJay I can't see your response to the funding answer on these various threads of yours - which ones it on exactly?

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hamptonhillbilly · 07/11/2011 20:36

oh sorry for double commenting on the double thread :)

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BayJay · 07/11/2011 20:32

hamptonhillbilly - I've just answered that one in the other thread (Mon 07-Nov-11 20:24:26). I believe most people are following both threads so there's no need to double-post.

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hamptonhillbilly · 07/11/2011 19:42

All taxpayers contribute to the cost of the nation's schools; Catholic taxpayers no less than any other taxpayer. The suggestion, therefore, that Catholic schools are being unfairly funded by taxpayers is entirely fallacious. The Catholic community actually pays more for its schools as 10% of the capital expenditure has to be provided from the Catholic community, whereas it is provided by the Government for other maintained schools i.e. they receive 100% funding. In addition to their taxes, the Catholic community provides in excess of a further £20 million per annum to its schools for capital expenditure. It should be remembered that 30% of pupils in Catholic schools are not Catholic and this is therefore a contribution that could be viewed as to the good of society. It also saves Government and arguably other taxpayers money, which they would have to find, were pupils in Catholic voluntary-aided schools to be educated in community schools.

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BayJay · 07/11/2011 17:13

hamptonhillbilly, what is your source for the £8 million that you refer to? My understanding is that no figures have been published.

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BayJay · 07/11/2011 17:12

florist, as I said in the other thread, I suggest you contact the individuals you refer to directly so that they can defend themselves.

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florist · 07/11/2011 17:07

Yes I do find the Accord types rather hypocritical - inclusive schools for everyone (except their own darlings);

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hamptonhillbilly · 07/11/2011 16:41

innertiger - nail on the head. Let the RC Archdiocese chip in 8 million and build the Catholic Secondary as promised by the councillours. The tax-payer's happy, Richmond parents would be happy with the increased secondary school places freed up by Catholic kids attending the Catholic School. Catholic parents would be happy to be on an equal footing with other Catholic Londoners in having Secondary provision in their Borough One snag is that this doesn't meet the Humanist agenda behind the narrowly worded anti petition - i.e. to remove state funding for any faith school - oh well let the consultation begin. That's why Jeremy wouldn't be happy.

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florist · 07/11/2011 16:39

IF RISC is not prepared to put run a secondary school on the site as a free school - the site is ideal for such a Free secondary school - and if the council struggles to run first preference secondary schools then it makes it an easier choice for the Catholic option.
I might want my children to go to a grammar school but if I don't meet the criteria they don't get in. Or, if I can't or won't move house to postcode and socially selective schools such as Camden School For Girls favoured by Accord types, they don't get in.
I don't say children at those schools shouldn't be funded by the state.
Catholic schools were around alot longer than state education itself and if the option for Richmond makes sense on financial and educational grounds that should be the option.

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BayJay · 07/11/2011 16:24

florist - are you trying to confuse me by switching thread? Smile.

"IF RISC is not prepared to put run a secondary school on the site as a free school"
I didn't say that. I don't run RISC, or speak for them, so don't know if they're considering it. However, until this week there was no inkling that the council might be prepared to consider other options anyway. If they open up the site to competition I expect quite a few providers will come forward. There are certainly at least two Free Schools hoping to set up in this borough (details elsewhere in the threads), and probably more. Howeer, Free Schools are usually just 1 or 2 form entry, and the Clifden site has space for a 5-form entry secondary school and 1-form entry primary school.

"I might want my children to go to a grammar school but if I don't meet the criteria they don't get in"
Yes, but you are able to try. You are able to aspire to getting them in. Nobody is telling you that because you are a Jew. Hindu. Seikh, Humanist (whatever) you might as well not bother even applying. That is what is so offensive to people.

"I might want my children to go to a grammar school but if I don't meet the criteria they don't get in"
Wow, you've really got it in for those "Accord types" haven't you? I repeat my answer from the other thread at Mon 07-Nov-11 06:52:28.

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LittleMrsMuppet · 07/11/2011 16:19

It is perhaps a pity that CofE parents on the Middlesex side of the river (that therefore have no access to Christ's) are not as organised at the RC ones. I would imagine that a great number of them would love a CofE Secondary choice. Equally, parents of boys have no boys-only school option.

I would think a little more highly of our elected representatives if they had ever done any research into what most people really want. It seems that the only ones that matter to them are those with the the loudest voices.

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florist · 07/11/2011 16:12

IF RISC is not prepared to put run a secondary school on the site as a free school - the site is ideal for such a free school - and if the council struggles to run first preference secondary schools then it makes it an easier choice for the Catholic option.
I might want my children to go to a grammar school but if I don't meet the criteria they don't get in. Or, if I can't or won't move school to postcode and socially selective schools such as Camden School For Girls favoured by Accord types they don't get in.
I don't say children at those schools shouldn't be funded by the state.
Catholic schools were around alot longer than state education itself and if the option for Richmond makes sense on financial and educational grounds that should be the option.

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BayJay · 07/11/2011 16:12

Hello longlizzie, and welcome. The points that you make have been covered quite extensively here, and in the other thread that runs parallel to this, and has recently been more active. I suggest you read all of the background discussion to prevent too much repetition. In answer to your specific points:

"Currently ours are the only Catholic primary schools which do not have a Catholic secondary school within borough to offer to their pupils. This is unfair. We want to keep our Catholic children within borough rather than cause unnecessary travel to faraway schools with all the environmental problems that causes"
There are many boroughs nationally that don't have Catholic secondary schools. Richmond is one of two in London, but London has a relatively high number of Catholic schools. Some of those schools are close to Richmond borough borders and would be closer than Clifden Rd for many people. Catholic schools are organised by Diocese not borough.

"There is no need for more community places, as there are plenty spare, but a great demand for CATHOLIC places"
Please see my answer to florist in the other thread (Mon 07-Nov-11 06:52:28) and then maybe we can pick up the conversation from there.

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corlan · 07/11/2011 16:06

I think you'll find it's only what Catholics want longlizzie.

The rest of us just want a decent school that our children have a chance of getting into and we don't see why we should be funding a new school that will automatically exclude our children because they are the wrong religion.

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longlizzie · 07/11/2011 14:49

The linking of primary and secondary schools cannot be the main issue here. It does not affect the strong reasons for building a Catholic Secondary school in the Borough.
Currently ours are the only Catholic primary schools which do not have a Catholic secondary school within borough to offer to their pupils. This is unfair.
We want to keep our Catholic children within borough rather than cause unnecessary travel to faraway schools with all the environmental problems that causes.
There is no need for more community places, as there are plenty spare, but a great demand for CATHOLIC places.
Let us respond to that demand and provide what people want - a Catholic secondary school in Richmond Borough.

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BayJay · 06/11/2011 15:26

Just adding a link to the other thread on this subject, which has been more active than this one lately.

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BayJay · 28/10/2011 09:52

There's continued coverage of the Catholic school debate in the latest edition of the Richmond and Twickenham Times. There is an article on page 13, and more letters on page 26.

There is also an article on page 11 about primary school places in the St Margarets area.

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BayJay · 21/10/2011 11:14

There's lots of coverage on the Catholic School issue in this week's Richmond and Twickenham Times. There's an article on Page 2, and letters on page 29.

Plus, on page 13, there's also some coverage of the excellent exam results achieved this year by the three LBRuT academies (Twickenham Academy, Hampton Academy and Richmond Park Academy).

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BayJay · 20/10/2011 18:09

Here's something interesting. Another new Free School is interested in setting up in Richmond. Looks like it has inclusive admissions, though presumably the ethos wouldn't appeal to everyone.

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BayJay · 11/10/2011 17:15

For info, Richmond Council has published a detailed report about the Linked School Policy.

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goodnessme · 11/10/2011 15:25

I've posted too much to put it all again on this thread, but come and have a look at my views over here

Would be really interested to know if anyone else, particularly those on 'the other side of the borough' share my opinion Smile

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