How bright do DCs need to be to get into Grammar school?

[completelydazed]

I'm sure this has been asked a hundred times before so I apologize in advance!

How bright does a child need to be to get a place at a Grammar school and should it be prioritized when deciding where to live?

Reading MN, I get the impression that children have to be either super bright or very well tutored to get in to a Grammar school. If my DCs turn out to be super bright then ok but I'm not sure about having my DCs intensively coached at such an early age. I also worry how they would fare later on if tutoring was the only reason they had been accepted.

My family (DH and two DC's) are currently living in SW London. Changes in my DH's job have opened up the option to move out to the Home counties. We're looking at a number of possible areas; some contain grammar schools and others don't. We're keen to maximize schooling options for our young DCs since we have no idea of their character or aptitude at this age. However, we're also keen not to have to move house for another 10+ years since the whole process of finding a house is incredibly tedious!

If we look at only areas that don't contain Grammar schools, we'd have a much wider range of places to live but be left with only private schools or good state comprehensives. If we look at only areas that contain Grammar schools, we'd reduce our choice of places to live substantially. If our DCs have no chance to get in anyway without heavy tutoring, we'd be back to private schools or comprehensives again.

So how valuable is the Grammar school option when deciding where to live and you have no idea how your DCs will turn out?

It depends where you end up moving to. Kent has lots of grammars and at least 25% of the 11 year olds go to grammar. If you move somewhere like Essex it's much more competitive.

There are only 164 Grammar schools in the whole of England.
Only three counties (Kent, Buckinghamshire and Lincolnshire) run a full grammar school system.
The rest of the country - luckily - does not HAVE to put up with divisive tutored selection.
Many counties do not have it at all.

Well, dd1 has just got A* on all subjects bar one in her mocks - but she didn't get into grammar school. It really depends on where you are etc etc. Around here there were something like 1200 girls going for around 120 places.

In Bucks about 30% go to grammar schools, but only about 24% of state school educated kids. In my experience tutoring is the norm, but not necessarily paid tutoring as lots of people home tutor. My daughter passed the 11+ with extra pracice papers at home. the familiarisation sessions in school don't give enough pratcie to answer the questions quickly enough.
Some of the areas in Bucks have good upper schools and others don't, so you'd need to look at options if your children don't pass.
The website elevenplus forum has lots of information on the system in different areas.

Bucks league tables
www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/education/school_tables/secondary/10/html/bacc_825.stm?compare=
great for those who get into the grammars
heaven help the rest.

We live in Surrey, but within reach of the grammar schools in Sutton and Kingston.

They are HUGELY competetive, particularly if you aren't actually in the boroughs. But the advantage of living here is that I can put dd1 in for the exams, but there's no pressure. If she doesn't get in, she can go to a nearby non-selective Surrey school instead.

She is bright, but not amazingly so. But I think she has to be in the top 80 to get a place, and they get around 1200 applicants! However, she would thrive in that kind of environment so it's worth a shot; ds1, on the other hand, would hate it, so we wouldn't consider grammar school for him.

On balance, I would rather live in an area with non-selective schools. I think the grammar system is horrid if you are forced to be part of it.

I am against state funded selective schools because I believe that my taxes should be used to give every child equal opportunities.

If people want selective schools they should be willing to pay for them.

In state schools, every child should have access to the same standards of teaching.
Which is why I'm also against Bliar's faith schools as they are divisive and discriminatory.

In our authority only 5% of children get into grammar school (in reality it's fewer than that as there are many applicants from over the LA boundaries applying). There are 20 applicants per place.

I wouldn't base a house purchase on a possibility - and remember a very good school now may not be so in 10 years time. I suspect we will buy BGs house move 2 years before the eldest is to transfer.

You also have to remember that some superbroght people do not take off in academic terms until secondary school- DH failed 11+, yet got 4As and a B at A level, 1st class Maths degree, and masters. He couldn't read until aged 8 or 9.

:)

Dp keeps saying he wants to move, CaptainNancy!

It will be 5 years time I'm afraid!

I'm not going anywhere - if we are very, very lucky the mortgage will be paid off then and I can spend it all in Vivienne Westwood - sod their education! :)

Seriously though and back to the Op - my view is that your best move is to look at the areas that have good state comprehensives.

We live in Kent and so did have the choice. My DS1 in Y11 now did not take the 11+ as we were not completely confident he would pass and at that time if he did not pass he would not have been able to go to our choice of secondary school as you had to put them first on the list. He faltered during the first two years of secondary (typical boy, mucked around) but has now got himself together and is doing well, always moving up the sets, never down.

My DD in Y9 did not want to go to a girls only school. She is doing very well (at least as well as any grammar school child).

My DS2 in Y7 is also doing very well. We did think about him taking the 11+, but tbh he didn't want to put in the work of practice papers (would not have gone down the tutor route).

From our secondary school that takes all levels of ability, two children have gone to Oxbridge this year. At least one has gone every year over the past 5 or 6. In fact last year's A level results were better than most of the local grammar schools'. Considering that this school takes everybody, I think that is fantastic and a child will do just as well at a good secondary as at a grammar, but they will have to push themselves harder. I think at a grammar the pupils are much more spoonfed.

Judy,
Your school is unusual for Kent then, as the league table is pretty damning of the gap between selective and non selective in Kent...
www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/education/school_tables/secondary/10/html/bacc_886.stm?compare=

We chose where to live before we'd even thought of having a child. So by luck we ended up in the catchment of a good comprehensive in an area where grammars had been done away with, but with an excellent grammar with residual places available up the road.

So if DD had turned out less bright she'd have been able to go to the comp; as it was she was able to go to the grammar (which suits her character). But it wasn't at all obvious till she was in yr 5 that this would be the case.

The guideline we were given was that the children likely to get GS places would be achieving level 5 SATs by the end of year 5 - this seems to have been accurate for our area.

You know what they say - only move into a grammar area if you're happy with the secondary modern that you would get if they don't go to the grammar. Most of the secondary moderns (high schools) round here select by distance, so you have to live less than a mile away.

dd1 was in top sets for her first couple of years at school, we moved to a new area when she was in year 2 and her new school was more academic. She was then in the bottom sets for everything, by year 3 the school were talking about her having an IEP as her written English and spelling was so poor. In years 4 & 5 her teachers were great and understood her (shy) she blossomed and was gradually moved up into the middle or top groups.

In year 6 she got 5A's in all her SATs, passed her 11+ and is now in a grammar school. If you'd told me that when she was in year 3 I wouldn't have believed you. They change so much educationally that I don't think you can put too much weight on how they're doing in the earlier years of primary school.

DS is in year 3 and about to have an IEP for his written English just like his eldest sister did. This time I feel a whole lot stressed about it because I know that everything can change over the next few years.

lot less stressed.

The figures that TalkinPeace posts are interesting. In actual fact the stats for Bucks show that the GCSE numbers for upper schools aren't much below the national average, which given that the top 25-30% are creamed off by the grammars looks pretty good to me.

One other factor to bear in mind is that in Bucks we have both single sex and mixed sex grammar schools so you can go down the grammar school route even if you favour mixed education.

mattellie

Comparing Buckinghamshire with the national average is not really appropriate.
What is the level of English as a Second Language, immigration churn - both within the UK (Forces schools) and from outside it ?
As parental economics are the best indicator of academic outcomes, the fact that ANY Buckinghamshire secondaries are below the National Average is shocking.

There are several places around London with excellent Comps, eg St Georges in Harpenden, Waldegrave Twickenham (not Country!!) Dame Alice Owen, Herts, Gordons Woking, You just need to live in the catchment then and hope the school doesnt change too much!!

We're in Bucks and bought here without even knowing there was a grammar system. OUr ds is at one of the top grammars in Bucks on that table, and passed the 11plus without any tutoring, but he did practice papers at home.

He's not a genius, but is bright. As an example, he reads stuff like The Invisible Man, Catcher in the Rye, The Grapes of Wrath for pleasure, and will analyse them with me. It's that sort of enquiring, analytical brightness, not necessarily being able to work out Fermat's last theorum, that will do well at Grammar imo.