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Secondary education

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Original poster

gcse higher/lower tiers advice, please

27 replies

citrus1 · 11/09/2010 16:14

Hi, could anyone explain the following - if you are doing GCSE's and you are "more able", do you get entered for higher tiers (or is that just for Maths) - my only concern is that if it turns out to be very tough, you may achieve a C/D whereas you may have got an A-C with the normal exams. Do you get a chance to do both? Sorry, but my GCSE knowledge is limited! Whatever happened to good old CSEs and O'levels!!! I hope this makes sense to someone! Thanks.

OP posts:
MmeBlueberry · 11/09/2010 16:32

Several subjects are tiered.

If you go for Higher tier, you generally can get anywhere from A* - D. Therefore, if you are a D candidate, you risk coming away with nothing if you have a bad day. The Foundation tier generally has a maximum grade of C.

We enter almost all of students for Higher tier, and only a handful at Foundation (we are a non-selective school, with a lower than average academic profile due to competitor selective schools).

Which paper you are entered for depends on performance in each individual subject. For some modular courses, you can be entered for a mix of foundation and higher.

Doesn't your school have a handbook to explain how this works in your specific school? It is difficult to give all the options, when the info you need has to be personal.

tokyonambu · 11/09/2010 16:34

I believe the best grade available on the foundation tier is C: you have to take the higher paper to get a B or a C.

In answer to your question, this is (sadly) just like O/CSE: the Foundation tier is the CSE, with the maximum grade an undifferentiated pass (a CSE Grade 1 was an O Level C). For anything else, you needed the O Level.

roisin · 11/09/2010 19:57

In maths the students have to cover extra topics to do the higher paper (A*-D), but in English they study exactly the same thing, but they get a little more guidance on structuring answers on the question paper.

So generally our Maths Dept enter more students for foundation paper than the English Dept.

scrappydappydoo · 11/09/2010 20:13

Ok before I say this bear in mind this was 18 years ago so things might have changed Hmm but thought I'd share anyway..

I was entered into the foundation stage maths only by my school - wasn't told that I could only get a c grade - you tend to think a maths gcse is a gcse - not so. When applying for uni I got turned down from 3 purely because of maths gcse only being foundation stage. So to them my 'c' maths grade wasn't good enough but if I had a 'c' having taken the higher level they would have offered (they said this to me on the phone). So if you have ambitions for uni you may want to consider that (although fully acknowledge situation could be different now). Not sure if that is helpful just a perspective really..

mnistooaddictive · 11/09/2010 20:35

scrappy 18 years ago Maths was 3 tier. If you did foundation the max you would have been able to get was a D. If you did intermediate you could have got a B. No uni knows what tier your C was from. Sorry but your story does not ring true. Are you sure you didn't get a D?

mnistooaddictive · 11/09/2010 20:38

As others have said you have to do the higher tier to get higher grades. The lower tier gives lower grades. It stops less academic pupils having a paper full of questions on topics they haven't studied. Also, otherwise A* and A pupils would spend ages having to answer G and F questions that they could do when they were 11. It means everyone gets a paper aimed at their level. Until fairly recently Maths was 3 tier and that was even more confusing.

scrappydappydoo · 11/09/2010 21:05

No sorry - must have done the middle tier then as I def got a 'c'...like I said was 18 yrs ago. All I remember was that unis would not allow me on course as I hadn't studied the 'higher' maths but nothing was said on prospectus just A-C grade. Was trying to make the point that it could have ongoing implications iyswim.

PixieOnaLeaf · 13/09/2010 12:52

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scrappydappydoo · 13/09/2010 15:34

They rang my school and asked which paper I did which is how I knew why they rejected me. I just remember getting annoyed that my 'c' wasn't a 'c' in their eyes and thinking whats the point in trying your absolute hardest and then basically being capped on what grade I could achieve - so I could have got 100% in all my maths exams but still only got a 'c' that wasn't good enough for uni - my secondary school was a bit crap and didn't explain this to me at the time (can you tell it still irks me Wink).

I think a better system would be to have two maths gcses - a general one and a higher one - so it is very clear what you have studied and also give those doing the general one a chance at a higher grade.

(sorry for the hijack op)

tokyonambu · 13/09/2010 16:04

"They rang my school and asked which paper I did"

Sorry, I suspect this has got garbled in the retelling. You're saying that, in the first pass of applications, a university phoned your school to find out which paper you'd sat for a GCSE? Over a Grade C? Either the admissions tutor was having a very, very quiet day or there's something missing in that chain of events.

BeeTeeDotCom · 13/09/2010 16:12

I personally would not bother with foundation tier, unless the student has really struggled with the particular subject.

scrappydappydoo · 13/09/2010 16:49

No nothing wrong in translation - it was first rounds of admissions - as in I had submitted ucas form and they rang to check my gsce grades - as far as I remember it was because the course involved studying statistics which they said I wouldn't have been able to cope with having not done higher maths work... It was a fairly small course that I can't imagine there was a lot of competition for so maybe the admissions tutors did have the time. I don't know how it worked - i can only tell my side of story!

Seriously - it did happen, I don't know what more to say but as I stated I was trying to make the point that the choice of what tier you do COULD have an impact on future education rather than an indepth analysis into my educational background..

PixieOnaLeaf · 13/09/2010 16:58

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tokyonambu · 13/09/2010 17:14

"the course involved studying statistics which they said I wouldn't have been able to cope with having not done higher maths work"

That's not unreasonable: the Foundation tier is the old CSE, and if there's material missing that's a problem.

mnistooaddictive · 13/09/2010 18:15

But she did intermediate, not foundation. That should have been ok. TBH if the school felt there was any chance she would get a B they shouyld have entered her for higher but as it's so long ago, we can't debate it now!

colapips · 13/09/2010 20:45

I did it when it was the three tiers in Maths - and the school said to me
if you work really hard you can get an 'A' grade
if you put in no effort you can get a 'B' grade

Any one guess what the lazy 16 year old in me did???

ravenAK · 13/09/2010 20:56

Having spent 3 weeks this summer marking GCSE English Lit papers, where one centre had entered its entire cohort for Higher...it's crucial to get it right. Lots of the kids whose papers I marked were getting 'notional' Es & below - ie. sweet FA, as Higher only awards A*-D.

Many of these students could've got an awarded grade, if only a D/E, if only they'd been entered for Foundation.

Where I live, you can't get into any of the local 6th forms without a D, your options even then being vastly reduced from those available to candidates with a C.

So our school policy:

Students expected to get 'safe' Bs & above - entered for Higher in November, re-take in July if they don't hit target

Students predicted C/D - entered for Foundation in November, have a punt at Higher in July if they get the magic C, otherwise, re-take Foundation

Everyone else - Foundation.

tokyonambu · 13/09/2010 21:08

So in practice, the GCSE is the CSE and O Level combined, even down to the divide...

ravenAK · 13/09/2010 21:10

Yes, pretty much.

We eventually get 80% of our cohort A*-C, but it takes a lot of them two goes at it, & many of them wouldn't get the C on a Higher paper - it's definitely tougher.

WilfShelf · 18/09/2010 14:36

OK, this is interesting... was just searching Ed topic for info on something I heard about DS' new secondary school and this thread might explain it. I had heard that the 'fast-track' maths group do something called a 'c' paper in year 8, a 'b' paper in year 9 and an 'a' paper in year 10 (or something). So it must be these tiered papers?

What is concerning me about this is the interpretation of this by universities - does this have the same issues attached as doing resits? I know I'm planning ahead here Grin as he's only in Y7 but I want to be sure as many options are left open to him as possible in the long term as he is very able in maths...

Kez100 · 18/09/2010 17:45

What I dislike about GCSE's is that when they were brought in - just after I did O levels - they were hailed as a real improvement for comprehensive education . All children would sit the same exam.

Well, quite obviously, that hasn't worked and the papers have been split again - except this time you cannot double enter!That's a real disadvantage for the bborderline children.

I was double entered for English Language - I got a CSE grade 2 and an O level grade A. You can only imagine the difference having that O level (added to a grade B Maths) made to my career.

I still think borderline students should be given a chance at both papers.

amicissima · 19/09/2010 16:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mountaingirl · 19/09/2010 16:27

Gosh I didn't know that even existed! Sent ds1 to board in th UK at a voluntary aided state school last year and wasn't even made aware of this tiered system as he went into yr 10, just thought about top and bottom streaming. I do hope the school haven't stuck him in the foundation level and he is doing the equivalent of cse's and we are paying 15,000 euros for the priviledge! We are in the process of working out what 6th form to send him to and what Alevels he'll do for uni. I hope that I haven't been wasting our time looking when all he'll have are cse equivalent. Why is it all so complicated nowadays? Why not just stick with cse's and o'levels?

mnistooaddictive · 19/09/2010 16:40

GCSE Maths has ALWAYS been tiered. AsI wrote above, the defining factor is what the child is capable of. Anyone who is capable of getting a higher grade will be entered for higher! You can't do both papers as they are done at the same time. There is often overlap i.e. the grade D questions on higher will be the grade D questions on foundation. There is no need to double enter - there is oiverlap between the grades available and any student felt capable of getting a grade on higher will be entered for higher.

Wilf - I have answered your question on your thread. I think your friend is talking about modular GCSE.

Talker2010 · 23/09/2010 12:08

A C is a C no matter what paper it comes from

Of course, if your child has any chance of getting a B or better then they will be entered for the Higher Tier

Since you would need GCSE B or better to consider a subject at A'level and GCSE A probably A* in any subject you were considering as part of a degree ... these subjects would all be at Higher GCSE

If your child is being entered for Foundation in any subject ... that is not something they should be considering for A level or beyond

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