Please or to access all these features

Scotsnet

Welcome to Scotsnet - discuss all aspects of life in Scotland, including relocating, schools and local areas.

The "independence pact"

170 replies

Sunnnyday · 15/09/2026 23:09

I'm surprised no-one's started a thread on this, so here goes. The leaders of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have signed a Joint Memorandum of Understanding and have called on the UK Government to start preparing for constitutional change.
Listening to the BBC on this, there is currently no majority in favour of splitting from the UK in any of the devolved nations, though Scotland is closer to it than the other two. It's a matter of those who are currently in government being in favour, rather than their populations being in favour. So is this no more than a publicity stunt?
And should any referendum on such a huge issue, which, regardless of your viewpoint, will cause enormous contention, upheaval and disruption over many years, be on a majority vote basis? Have we learnt anything from Brexit?
I'm also confused as to why the leaders of Scotland and Wales are apparently confident that their countries would be swiftly welcomed into the EU, and how they would manage a hard border with England.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Differentforgirls · 27/09/2026 18:02

Sunnnyday · 25/09/2026 09:08

I have a low opinion of the education system as a whole, including all the disruption and violence, and of the Curriculum for Excellence qualifications which our unfortunate children are required to cram for (very geared around exam technique rather than substance). I have sympathy for the young people who are offered that as their education system. They leave school much less well-educated than all the other young people I come across (from various other countries). The fact that my child went through that system doesn't change that. It just gives me more insight into the system.

It doesn't actually. While people like you didn't like it, many people did. Your personal experience isn't everyones. Were you educated in Scotland?

Murley · 27/09/2026 23:13

celticnations · 27/09/2026 17:21

@Sunnnyday

"More news about how successful the SNP Government is at governing Scotland. From the BBC -".

Yes. Not good at all.

But neither has Westminster excelled in reducing regional inequality in terms of life expectancy, life opportunities, wages & investment. And it is Westminster and it's ever present historial desire to still be the big "I am" on the world stage that is driving us all dangerously towards at worst a nuclear war with Russia, at best loss of critical infrastructure as winter closes in.

Equality of Governance & Respect is all that I ask if we "Celts" are to happily stay.

Would you rather we didn’t support Ukraine?

celticnations · 29/09/2026 14:10

@Murley Of course not.

My point is that currently where Westminster leads, ultimately we have to follow. Like Brexit which is the better example.

The UK is not popular with large swathes of Scots & Irish. Look at Drumcree - pathetic Orangemen determined to foist their muscular "Love of Union" on people who detest it.

WhyamIinahandcartandwherearewegoing · 29/09/2026 15:58

Burnhams speech just nixxed this stunt for now I’m hoping….

Differentforgirls · 30/09/2026 05:17

WhyamIinahandcartandwherearewegoing · 29/09/2026 15:58

Burnhams speech just nixxed this stunt for now I’m hoping….

What stunt?

Sunnnyday · 30/09/2026 23:06

@Differentforgirls Why are you interested in where I went to school? When I was at school, Scotland had a completely different education system. One which had a high international reputation. That has been deliberately dismantled and replaced by the Curriculum for Excellence. It wasn't broken, but they went ahead and broke it.

OP posts:
Sunnnyday · 30/09/2026 23:10

Differentforgirls · 27/09/2026 18:02

It doesn't actually. While people like you didn't like it, many people did. Your personal experience isn't everyones. Were you educated in Scotland?

I've no idea what you're talking about. Of course my child going through the Scottish education system gives me more of an insight than if I didn't have a child in the Scottish system. And what are you trying to say - that many people love the current system? Then let's discuss that. Who loves the system, and why do they love it?

OP posts:
Sunnnyday · 30/09/2026 23:13

Differentforgirls · 30/09/2026 05:17

What stunt?

Burnham wants to get closer to the EU, and is not discounting the UK rejoining.

OP posts:
Differentforgirls · 01/10/2026 04:55

Sunnnyday · 30/09/2026 23:06

@Differentforgirls Why are you interested in where I went to school? When I was at school, Scotland had a completely different education system. One which had a high international reputation. That has been deliberately dismantled and replaced by the Curriculum for Excellence. It wasn't broken, but they went ahead and broke it.

Brought in by Labour.

Differentforgirls · 01/10/2026 04:55

Sunnnyday · 30/09/2026 23:13

Burnham wants to get closer to the EU, and is not discounting the UK rejoining.

Good.

Sunnnyday · 01/10/2026 06:06

Differentforgirls · 01/10/2026 04:55

Brought in by Labour.

Have you noticed that the SNP has been in power in Scotland for the past NINETEEN YEARS?!

OP posts:
Differentforgirls · 01/10/2026 06:15

Sunnnyday · 01/10/2026 06:06

Have you noticed that the SNP has been in power in Scotland for the past NINETEEN YEARS?!

Thankfully. No need to shout.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 01/10/2026 06:36

It's frustrating trying to talk to someone who just appears to be spouting inaccurate propaganda

Posted without a hint of irony 😂

You seem to be saying that the Labour party, Conservative party and Reform party shouldn't be allowed to operate / have MPs in Scotland? Is that right? Because they're headquartered in and have the majority of their MPs in England?

No. This is not at all what I am saying, and I'm not sure how you can possibly have drawn this conclusion. It is somewhat odd though, that a political party headquartered in, say for arguments' sake, Poland, would not be able to field candidates in Scotland, but one in England can.

The point I was making is that English based parties have predominantly English-based representation in the Commons, so English issues dominate, and since English parties enforce the Whip to vote along party lines, we have to watch the ridiculous spectacle of Scottish constituency MPs repeatedly voting directly in conflict with Scottish interests, and practically none of them ever have the spine to call this out for what it is (honourable mention to Brian Leishman).

It's a clear example of one of the practical ways that your claim Scots have more say in the running of Scotland that the English do England is total nonsense, because Scotland returns MPs representing these English parties, who are then whipped to vote along the lines of what suits their English party and not what suits the constituency and country they are supposed to represent. The contrast between Labour's pre-2024 electioneering re Grangemouth, what has happened to Grangemouth since, and the excuses which have been trotted out, and what has happened with English-based industries facing similar predicaments couldn't be more stark, and it's a glaring, obvious example of why English parties will always prioritise English matters and the English electorate, and why Scots are monumentally stupid to encourage this by electing members who represent English parties.

As far as the EU is concerned - as has been repeatedly explained on this thread (which you have apparently not bothered to read) - Scotland, were it to become independent, is nowhere near satisfying the requirements to apply to join the EU

Less than 10 years on from actually being a part of the EU

It really begs the question how the divergence can be so sudden and so strident, and how those with their hands on the levers can be so intransigent.

People who make the "but everything is Scotland is shit therefore change should be off the agenda" arguments don't seem to realise these points are entirely self-defeating.

It is far easier to envisage a future where the UK becomes substantially closer to the EU

Is it though?

Perhaps it should be borne in mind that the EU is not particularly enamoured of the "UK" right now, since it bent over backwards to please the UK, gave the UK inordinately preferential terms, and the "UK" still told the EU to ram it, but not only that, the people who orchestrated and drove much of this, are still a very prominent part of frontline UK politics, indeed, until very recently one of the biggest charlatans and EU-sceptics of the lot looked a dead cert to be the UK's PM post the next GE.

So no, YOU might think it's easy to "envisage", but I don't believe it is, remotely, from the EU's perspective, because right now I see no reason at all why the EU would consider hopping back into bed with the "UK", while the UK is still apparently enamoured of the folk who drove that split in the first place.

Sunnnyday · 01/10/2026 11:28

@XDownwiththissortofthingX "It is somewhat odd though, that a political party headquartered in, say for arguments' sake, Poland, would not be able to field candidates in Scotland, but one in England can."
Well, Scotland and England are parts of the same country (the United Kingdom). You may want to check that by having a look at your passport.

But a political party based in Poland would in fact be able to send one of their members to Scotland on a temporary visa and get him or her to stand for the Scottish Parliament, as an independent or by joining a political party here.

The Scottish Parliament has an MSP for the Greens (Manivannan) who is not only not a British citizen (he's Indian) but doesn't even have a permanent right to live in the UK (he came here on a student visa, which didn't have long to run when he stood for the Scottish Parliament and under which he was not allowed to take on a full time job). He was allowed to stand for the Scottish Parliament, but would not have been allowed to stand for the UK Parliament. That's because in 2025 Scotland deliberately changed the law to allow foreigners with any kind of right to remain (even very temporary) to stand for the Scottish Parliament.

The former leader of the Greens, Lorna Slater, is Canadian. Apparently, in 5 years as an MSP for Edinburgh she failed to hold a single surgery for her constituents. No doubts her priorities were more personal.

Transgender Tamil immigrant with no British visa elected as Green Party MSP

Scottish Elections (Representation and Reform) Act 2025 - Explanatory Notes

MSN

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/politics/government/transgender-tamil-immigrant-with-no-british-visa-elected-as-green-party-msp/ar-AA22NDRq

OP posts:
Differentforgirls · 01/10/2026 11:34

Sunnnyday · 01/10/2026 11:28

@XDownwiththissortofthingX "It is somewhat odd though, that a political party headquartered in, say for arguments' sake, Poland, would not be able to field candidates in Scotland, but one in England can."
Well, Scotland and England are parts of the same country (the United Kingdom). You may want to check that by having a look at your passport.

But a political party based in Poland would in fact be able to send one of their members to Scotland on a temporary visa and get him or her to stand for the Scottish Parliament, as an independent or by joining a political party here.

The Scottish Parliament has an MSP for the Greens (Manivannan) who is not only not a British citizen (he's Indian) but doesn't even have a permanent right to live in the UK (he came here on a student visa, which didn't have long to run when he stood for the Scottish Parliament and under which he was not allowed to take on a full time job). He was allowed to stand for the Scottish Parliament, but would not have been allowed to stand for the UK Parliament. That's because in 2025 Scotland deliberately changed the law to allow foreigners with any kind of right to remain (even very temporary) to stand for the Scottish Parliament.

The former leader of the Greens, Lorna Slater, is Canadian. Apparently, in 5 years as an MSP for Edinburgh she failed to hold a single surgery for her constituents. No doubts her priorities were more personal.

Transgender Tamil immigrant with no British visa elected as Green Party MSP

Scottish Elections (Representation and Reform) Act 2025 - Explanatory Notes

In other areas of the laws they changed did they do it inadvertently rather than 'deliberately'?

Sunnnyday · 01/10/2026 12:03

@XDownwiththissortofthingX You appear to be completely unable to understand that the various regions of England (eg North Yorkshire, Kent, Lincolnshire) are as different from each other as they are from Scotland. There is not an "English vote", with everyone in England wanting the same things. Survey after survey has shown that there is little difference between Scots and the English. But Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are very largely able to govern their own affairs, unlike the various regions of England.

It's true that the Scottish Government is not in charge of national security or the army. Thank God. The SNP have proved themselves incapable of putting in place basic accounting safeguards to prevent their own staff from embezzling a large percentage of their own party funds. And they're incapable of running a few ferries. Do you really want them to be in charge of protecting Scotland against spying and the genuine prospect of attack by Russia?

As far as the EU is concerned - Scotland, were it independent (rather than part of the UK, which I'm sure you actually do understand is why Scotland used to be in the EU), would simply not meet the membership criteria, by a very long way. And I sincerely doubt that the EU are keen to welcome Scotland into the EU in any event - a very small country with a poor economy, with a highly incompetent government with an international reputation for corruption (yes, people in the EU speak English and read the UK news). And that's assuming the nightmare of a hard border between Scotland and England could be solved. I don't think there would be a hope in hell unless the UK as a whole re-joined the EU or got a Norway-type deal before Scotland became independent.

You say "People who make the "but everything is Scotland is shit therefore change should be off the agenda" arguments don't seem to realise these points are entirely self-defeating."
If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting that if we're not happy with things in Scotland, we should want Scotland to become independent and to join the EU, so that those bad things will change.

  1. There is no reason to believe that an independent Scotland would correct all, or any, of the current issues with how the SNP are governing Scotland. It would almost certainly mean that in addition to the current mismanagement, the things which are currently run by the UK Government - including the army and national security - would be run disastrously by the Scottish government.
  2. The EU does not run the countries that are in the EU. So, for example, joining the EU does not change a country's education system. If we want a better education system, the only way we can achieve that is by putting pressure on our government, the Scottish government, to improve the system.
OP posts:
Sunnnyday · 01/10/2026 12:21

Differentforgirls · 01/10/2026 11:34

In other areas of the laws they changed did they do it inadvertently rather than 'deliberately'?

It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall. Was that change in the law, allowing Manivannan to become an MSP despite his being an Indian national (only resident in the UK/Scotland for a short time and whose student visa was about to expire) made with that particular "non-binary" person in mind? The new legislation was put in place in 2025. In 2025 Manivannan ran for the Scottish Parliament in a by-election.

Does a serious government change the law in such a fundamental way, just to allow one particular individual to stand for Parliament?

OP posts:
Differentforgirls · 01/10/2026 12:30

Sunnnyday · 01/10/2026 12:21

It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall. Was that change in the law, allowing Manivannan to become an MSP despite his being an Indian national (only resident in the UK/Scotland for a short time and whose student visa was about to expire) made with that particular "non-binary" person in mind? The new legislation was put in place in 2025. In 2025 Manivannan ran for the Scottish Parliament in a by-election.

Does a serious government change the law in such a fundamental way, just to allow one particular individual to stand for Parliament?

Aww you're back to them? They are not a SNP MSP.

Sunnnyday · 01/10/2026 12:38

Differentforgirls · 01/10/2026 12:30

Aww you're back to them? They are not a SNP MSP.

So what? The SNP need to keep the Greens on board, remember? Do you really think that there aren't constant talks and negotiations going on between the SNP and the Greens?

Apparently you're so keen on the idea of independence that you really don't give a toss what your own government does in the meantime. How many foreign nationals in the Scottish Parliament are you prepared to tolerate? How do we know who they really owe allegiance to? And how well can they represent their Scottish constituents?

OP posts:
Differentforgirls · 01/10/2026 12:42

Sunnnyday · 01/10/2026 12:38

So what? The SNP need to keep the Greens on board, remember? Do you really think that there aren't constant talks and negotiations going on between the SNP and the Greens?

Apparently you're so keen on the idea of independence that you really don't give a toss what your own government does in the meantime. How many foreign nationals in the Scottish Parliament are you prepared to tolerate? How do we know who they really owe allegiance to? And how well can they represent their Scottish constituents?

Considering the SNP run a minority govt, there are talks going on with every party, the exception being Reform.

Differentforgirls · 01/10/2026 12:43

Sunnnyday · 01/10/2026 12:38

So what? The SNP need to keep the Greens on board, remember? Do you really think that there aren't constant talks and negotiations going on between the SNP and the Greens?

Apparently you're so keen on the idea of independence that you really don't give a toss what your own government does in the meantime. How many foreign nationals in the Scottish Parliament are you prepared to tolerate? How do we know who they really owe allegiance to? And how well can they represent their Scottish constituents?

You're sounding racist now btw.

Sunnnyday · 01/10/2026 13:49

Differentforgirls · 01/10/2026 12:43

You're sounding racist now btw.

Yeah, right. Because English people are totally different from Scottish people, but people who have spent most of their lives in India and are Indian citizens are so in tune with Scottish people that they are very well qualified to represent them in Parliament and to help them with all the issues they may need help with from their MP. I mentioned a Canadian too. Was that racist?

Just one example - the massive problem of rape in India. Here is Manivannan, a brand new MSP, giving his views on the issue of rape. He was clearly not in tune with how people talk about rape in the UK, and has caused a lot of concern.

But I'm also genuinely concerned about the fact that we have opened up our Parliament to foreigners, who may obviously act in the interests of their countries rather than ours, especially as their families remain in their home countries. Manivannan could easily become a minister at some stage. And apparently there's no rule that you even have to live in Scotland to do an MSP's job.

MSP apologises over controversial rape 'demonisation' comments - BBC News

OP posts:
Differentforgirls · 01/10/2026 14:46

I don’t know what any of that has to do with me. I’m not a SGP voter.

Sunnnyday · 01/10/2026 15:38

Differentforgirls · 01/10/2026 14:46

I don’t know what any of that has to do with me. I’m not a SGP voter.

Presumably you were happy to vote SNP when they shared power with the Greens, and they clearly remain close to them now. And the legislation was changed by the SNP government (not sure of the timing - they were probably in alliance with the Greens when the decision to change the legislation was made). Why are you happy to have people who are not British and may only have been in Scotland for a very short time and intend to return to their home countries in the future as MSPs, and even ministers? Do you not see any disadvantages and risks to that? And doesn't it bother you that that very important change to the rules appears to have been made because the Greens made a new friend from India who was supposed to be in Scotland short term as a student (his identifying as non-binary may well have been what sold him to them)?

I find this particularly strange from a Scottish Indy supporter.

OP posts:
XDownwiththissortofthingX · 01/10/2026 15:59

And the legislation was changed by the SNP government (not sure of the timing - they were probably in alliance with the Greens when the decision to change the legislation was made)

That came about as a result of the Scottish Elections (Franchise and Representations) Act 2020, the driver behind which was....

Oh

Recommendations arising from the Smith Commission in the aftermath of the 2014 "No" vote in the Independence Referendum. So the winning side decided there was a paucity of representation in terms of scope and recommended this was addressed by the Scottish Parliament, the Scottish Parliament duly did so.

This was also a Bill that to pass into an Act required a Parliamentary supermajority, which it duly achieved, so no, you can't even level the SNP/Green "pet project" accusation at this one I'm afraid.