The Edinburgh Question: Labour's tax on private schools

[Eastcoastie]

A group has popped up on FB aimed at parents in Edinburgh who are against Labour's policy of charging VAT on private school fees if they get elected in July. 25-30% of children in Edinburgh are privately educated so the policy is very likely to require big changes to education providers in Edinburgh and some areas of the Lothians.

George Watson's has announced a 9% fee increase for the coming year and according to members of the group, if the VAT policy goes through, they have been told that this will have to be passed on too, so next years fees would likely see a 20% rise plus inflation. Staff at the school are already on a pay freeze and the accounts show an operating loss.

Members of the group have also said that GWC are planning for a loss of 350 students if the policy is enacted.

Heriots parents have been told of a 6% fee increase for the coming year and the school are also likely to pass on the VAT bill next year if enacted too. Parents are being told, if they are unhappy, to leave.

Prior to the policy being announced, Edinburgh's projections for school capacity flagged 9/23 secondary schools as being at or exceeding capacity in 2023, rising to 18/23 in 2027.

How will Edinburgh/Lothians manage even minimal fall out from the private sector?

https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/22448/secondary-school-roll-projections

Just to add, our giant private primary school has also just limited breakfast and after school places for P1 and P2 because they can't get the staff, so no guarantees of getting wrap around care.

1. In times of need councils can find space for refugee communities. I am sure they can do the same for private school kids
2. There are places in schools like the WHEC or Castlebrae
3. There is capacity in Fife, West, East and Midlothian - can pop people on buses
4. Huts until extensions can be built.

Aren't a lot of those the children of people living in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland in areas where daily travel ftom home to the nearest state secondary school would be so arduous that boarding is the best way for those children to receive an acceptable education?

@Caplin im in East Lothian, finding an after school nanny or childminder is like a needle in a haystack and particularly if you want them to collect for the younger years. Most people in EL who send their kids to the day schools in Edinburgh also work in Edinburgh. Our state after school provision (as pp - if you can get a place) doesnt allow for a parent to work 9-5 in Edinburgh. There are very few career jobs available in the town itself so most people in higher paying jobs will be commuting for at least part of the week. I understand in cities there may be more opportunities for external provisions or better transport links but we cant all live in Glasgow or Edinburgh. Schools in Edinburgh and the Lothians finish at lunch time on a Friday too which isnt the case at private.

@Caplin

Apologies. It was true a few years ago.

I'm also in Edinburgh and work with a lot of parents in East Lothian, some of the private schooled families also use a nanny due to the issues of wrap around care.

I was very unfussy and hired a babysitter off gumtree who wasn't a registered childminder, but came highly recommended by another family she had been with for 5 years. She is basically a spare nana to my kids and they adore her. I got a lot of applications though. I think if you want a registered childminder you will struggle, but I wanted someone who would watch them in my home. Au pair is the other option, a few of my friends went down that route.

I’m not denying that really, but it’s a different issue to VAT on private schools.

I mean if someone is spending £30-40k a year sending a couple of kids to private schools they could afford to employ their own staff to do out of hours care for less.

What I found laughable was people were stating it was the only option, which is ridiculous.

Some, but a lot are the kids of army officers, doctors, farmers etc. People who have to travel a lot for a work or do weird shifts. The army fund a lot of places at Fettes.

At our Edinburgh private school there are lots of kids who travel over on the bus from Fife, East Lothian, West Lothian etc. I would say 80% of the kids are within Edinburgh City Council through.

Just read an article on this that @Liverpoolma123 posted.

Even if 7% of private school kids in the UK moved to state immediately that would equate to around 40’000 places.

Last year the UK had 41’000 refugee children that they were able to create places for.

The places can be created if needed.

I agree with you here @Caplin

It’s ridiculous to say that private schools are your only choice for childcare, some serious detachment from reality going on here.

I also like you fell into the private school trap.

Had my kids in two batches, first batch was very young and second batch an official ‘geriatric’.

By the time the youngest came along I could afford to send her to private so I did.

I’d hesitate to say I regretted it as she had a good experience but I wouldn’t do it again, she wasn’t sporty or musical enough to get the benefit out of that and the education in comparison to my other kids who went to state school (for full disclosure it was Williamwood) was much of a muchness.

All these pearl-clutching protests are basically just people realising that political decisions can affect their lifestyle too, and not just those who are less affluent.

There’s no way paying £10’s of thousands a year in private education is ever your ‘only option’, it’s quite frankly ridiculous to say that.

Although it mirrors the attitude of the higher echelons of a party that are about to suffer a UK Record defeat.

The public are voting this attitude out thankfully.

Sending some George Watson’s Refugees to places like Methil for a year or two would probably do then some good in the long run.

A lot of comments are made on class sizes. When I was at school in the 70s/80s there were 32 in my secondary class, and when I found a photo of my primary class I counted nearly 40 of us!

But times have changed, and there is a higher proportion of disruptive/violent children, special needs, etc, which makes the dynamic in a classroom very different. Combine that with a vast reduction in available sanctions for bad behaviour, and it's a recipe for disaster. An increase in classroom sizes is only going to make this worse.

In any case, the whole VAT thing is a red herring, designed purely to get votes. If you have enough money for an expensive house in a good catchment you can buy privilege in that way instead - but you don't see people who resent private schools venting about the social inequality of massively different catchments. And as for the worst state schools, you can't solve their problems by throwing money at them.

@DexaVooveQhodu they are mostly overseas pupils so would never have gone to Edinburgh day schools.

Percentage of Edinburgh school pupils private isn't the same as the percentage of pupils who live in Edinburgh. It's equating different stats.

That's why the 25% figure sound wrong. It is.

The thing is though, if you buy a house in an expensive school catchment then the majority will pay a large whack of stamp duty in order to live there.

So you’re still paying tax on the privilege that you’re buying.

Apparently there are 37000 private school pupils in Scotland.

If we assume that 10% will leave (they won’t, IFS expects around 6%)

Then we have 33’300 left.

So if we assume that they all pay an average of £15k a year in fees. (Although most are higher, some around double that)

Then that will be £99.9 million in VAT raised in Scotland as a result of that policy.

Now the 3700 pupils that have left will require state funding of £8500 each.

So funding of £29.75m is required in total.

Taking away £5m for administration this would leave you with an excess of £67.4m a year.

Enough to build at least 2 new schools a year.

The policy solve all or educational issues on it’s own but enough to make a positive difference.

Plus the main factor is the fact that it’s morally the right thing to do.

@Meeplemakeglasgow if the whole of Scotland had Williamwood as a catchment school most of the privates would close down.

The problem is that 90% of state schools fail academic and or high aiming/achieving kids.

@Carebearsonmybed That’s true, which is why I’ve been clear on what school I was comparing private education to.

What’s your source for the 90% of state schools fail academic kids?

According to The Times School League Tables only 13 State Schools in Scotland had less than 10% of kids achieve 5 Highers A-C.

Out of around 370.

Seems a bit of an exaggeration to say that 90% of schools fail, no?

The housing crisis and lack of affordable homes is literally one of the biggest issues in the UK right now.

I'm not going to argue about the figures, which don't particularly interest me. Good luck though if you think they'd build new schools with any extra money.

I'm going to argue though about "morally right". Is it morally right if in sending my kids to their catchment school, I'd be sending them to place where the kids throw chairs in class, and spit on each other? Where kids won't do extracurricular activities in case the others ostracise them for being a snob? Meanwhile a couple of miles along the road people get to send their children to a better school, for free. Well, free if you can afford the housing - so you're buying privilege. (And also, a couple of miles along the road in a different catchment, the schools are full of children of drug addicts and parents who are generally neglectful). State schools are massively different from each other, and it's not about the money available to the school.

VAT on private schools is potentially a vote winner as people will think, well I'm not in the 7%, that 7% are rich so let's tax them. If we wanted to equalise educational opportunities by, say, getting rid of catchments and having a lottery, that would be deeply unpopular as 50% would be worse off - but it would have a much bigger effect on equality of opportunity.

i literally made this arguement to you about expensive catchments and you replied with east ren not being an expensive catchment with properties available at <£180k. £180k is less than £2k stamp duty to scotgov.

Politics of envy.

No, you said everyone in East Ren could ‘easily’ afford private school.

I merely pointed out not everyone in the catchment was as wealthy as you perceived.

It’s a state school, in a mixed area.

There are 2 bedroom flats here for £140k just now.

Not everyone pays a fortune in stamp duty, although many do.

No, iv never said 'everyone' in east ren could do anything.

The people paying significant stamp duty can likely afford private fees though.

Cliche of Twitter

Are you asking me to shed tears for privately educated pupils? Rather than have concerns about the many pupils in publicly educated schools? Those schools where teachers are buying books, pens and sometimes food for their pupils?

Really? So very many questions.

VAT has not been devolved, it was supposed to be an assigned tax but problems with the model means that this hasn’t happened. All VAT raised from parents paying for private education in Scotland will go up Westminster. No guarantees that it will make its way back to Scotland.

The VAT policy will not have a significant positive benefit to education in the state sector in Scotland which already has higher funding per head than many local authorities in England.

As pps have mentioned it will increase privilege by post code.