The Edinburgh Question: Labour's tax on private schools

[Eastcoastie]

A group has popped up on FB aimed at parents in Edinburgh who are against Labour's policy of charging VAT on private school fees if they get elected in July. 25-30% of children in Edinburgh are privately educated so the policy is very likely to require big changes to education providers in Edinburgh and some areas of the Lothians.

George Watson's has announced a 9% fee increase for the coming year and according to members of the group, if the VAT policy goes through, they have been told that this will have to be passed on too, so next years fees would likely see a 20% rise plus inflation. Staff at the school are already on a pay freeze and the accounts show an operating loss.

Members of the group have also said that GWC are planning for a loss of 350 students if the policy is enacted.

Heriots parents have been told of a 6% fee increase for the coming year and the school are also likely to pass on the VAT bill next year if enacted too. Parents are being told, if they are unhappy, to leave.

Prior to the policy being announced, Edinburgh's projections for school capacity flagged 9/23 secondary schools as being at or exceeding capacity in 2023, rising to 18/23 in 2027.

How will Edinburgh/Lothians manage even minimal fall out from the private sector?

https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/22448/secondary-school-roll-projections

GWC in Edinburgh definitely has capacity in primary. Not sure about their secondary or other Edinburgh schools- anyone know?

Specifically to GWC - they stated they could potentially have another lower primary class, so genuinely have spaces.
Canaan Lane is fully playbased P1 which will attract some parents, plus South Morningside primary will remain over crowded on their main site for another 5 or 6 years, and whilst it has a great reputation I've met parents who are unhappy with the quality of teaching in P3-4 - which will also drive out of catchment requests for Canaan Lane.

The council were 2 years overdue on Canaan Lane and totally disorganised on knowing where P1-2 from South Morningside would be housed so I hold out little hope for any intelligent action on increased numbers in state due to VAT changes.

Can we all agree that Edinburgh councils handling of school overcrowding is always a total and utter shambles?

All Edinburgh state schools are play based in P1

My experience is entirely at primary level, which has seen falling school rolls/birth rate, so there is definitely room in state schools at primary level (although our catchment is oversubscribed, would we count as moving into catchment if we moved from private school?)

I suspect the most immediate impact would be felt at P1 and S1, which are the main intake years for the Edinburgh private schools, which is also when out of catchment applications are made.

Boroughmuir is already too full, but presumably they have to accommodate all catchment kids?

@mathsAIoptions the government are unable to advance schools in order to accommodate the policy. The sums of money simply don't add up. Labour say they want to use the money to recruit 6500 new teachers. There are over 30,000 schools in the UK, so best case scenario is that they don't even all get one additional teacher. And thats using labours figures which claim that no children will be removed from the private sector and there will be no decrease in % uptake of private schooling.

According to the Guardian - every child in the UK who opts out of the private system will contribute around £3k of VAT to the government each year. Every child in the state school system costs the gov around £8k per year. The money labour plan to bring in with vat revenue is very quickly going to be erroded if children start dropping out of their private schools, or worse yet, never starting at them. The potential result? A substantial threat to the Treasury’s ability to fund improved state education outcomes.

Yes, they do. The only thing the council can do is change the catchments to prevent future children joining but that will only push house prices up for what would become a very small and exclusive catchment.

Having looked round Canaan Lane & S Morningside (which is currently in Canaan Lane older year classrooms as no room elsewhere) they feel very different. Huge difference in amount of time outside and links with preschool area. P1 S Morningside kids are upstairs in classrooms designed for older years. Canaan Lane space has access to outside areas at all times. Plus the uncertainty about where South Morningside P1 & 2 will be accommodated next year and the reportedly tired state of main S Morningside building which is located right on a busy road junction- very much a 2 tier state system right there.

I'm not sure about that, does that only apply at P1and S1?
I thought if you moved into catchment at say S3 you are not guaranteed a place if the school is full so the same may apply if you are moving school at that point.
The council have to find the child a place at a nearby school

Aren’t they doing up Deanbank for the South Morningside P1/P2s?

It’s where they were whilst Canaan Lane was being built

I was amazed at how many people don’t pay full fees. My friend was on a very decent wage and never paid more than 50% for her DC. The school was also very good about fees when she was made redundant.

Boroughmuir does as well as it does because it has an almost entirely wealthy catchment. If more wealthy children enter the other state schools then the margin of results between the state and private system in Edinburgh will narrow and more people will feel comfortable about their children going to the state schools. It’s like Chinese Whispers, working in Edinburgh- lots of people from outside who went to state schools themselves and say they were perfectly happy, fretting when their children are born that as so many people in Edinburgh go private then they must know something they don't. Glasgow has much higher state school results because more of the richer kids are in the state school system.

@Coughsweet its not just the education people move to private for. We use private because it guarantees wrap around and holiday care. If the fees get too much then i guess i could quit my job and we wouldnt need the cover. Im fortunate my family could get by on one salary but iv worked hard for my career so has dh, neither of us want to pack it in.

I think that’s partly true - about Edinburgh parent paranoia - but there are also some of the worst state schools in Scotland in Edinburgh. Quite a lot of Edinburgh schools are terrible.

I’m not sure. Mine were at Tynecastle and had a good experience. From what I can tell, it’s regarded by parents whose children aren’t there as a terrible school and I would completely disagree with that.

Also, the schools are bound to be terrible when 25-30% of the wealthiest children are out of the system entirely.

Perhaps it varies with schools. My DCs used the ASC every day as DH and I always worked full time. Holiday clubs over the summer. We were lucky that neither of us worked shifts but I used to work long hours and DH could do more work at home in the evening so he tended to collect.

I think the sports provision is 100 times better private compared to state. We were lucky that the DCs were able to access out of school clubs they really enjoyed.

I’m one of those parents - went to state school and it was fine. Live in good catchment and assumed we’d be going to state school.

But we can afford private, and tbh spending per pupil in state schools has barely increased since I was at school.

It’s not because of whispers. It’s because it’s better. There are three qualified education professionals in my son’s class of 22, so he gets a lot more attention than he would do otherwise.

So we pay, and we’re very happy with it. But it’s absolutely something we should pay VAT on. And I’ll continue to vote for whichever party comes closest to offering this standard of education for all children

@Coughsweet yes you have been very lucky. My local state school asl has 30 places for the whole primary school which is over 1000 people. Its also terribly rated on the care inspectorate report. There are some clubs that do holiday cover but not full days unfortunately.

What school did your friend get the bursary from?

The edinburgh day schools all have pretty low household income limits for bursaries. The boarding schools dont publish their limits so potentially much higher but then so are the fees.

This is the problem.
Edinburgh will never have the high performing state schools Glasgow has because so many are in the private sector.
In most of the private schools approx 1/3rd of S5 get 5As at Higher. In other cities many of those kids would be in state schools really boosting the results

This is a massive advantage, and going full time instead of taking time off on Fridays to look after kids boosts the available income. The amount of parents who spend their whole time refreshing their emails around after school club booking time of year…

@Eastcoastie are you in Edinburgh? I wasn’t aware there were any primary schools as big as 1000 pupils. Do you mind me asking where that is as that is astonishing. Even S Morningside is a
”mere” 600.

I think Dunbar has more than 1,000 primary school pupils

There was initially no place for DC1 at the school after school club so I advertised for someone to do the school collection and take home until a place came up at the club which also meant DC2 was guaranteed a place. DC1 liked to come home in P1 so it worked well whereas DC2 was less bothered aged 5 as their sibling was also there. The local nursery also opened an ASC and did collection from the school.

I think Covid might have put paid to some of the weekly holiday clubs. I don’t see as many advertised.

Ah, I’d read that as a single school. My mistake.