Is participating in Mumsnet Feminist threads or Twitter women’s rights threads a Hate Crime?

[Shouldgetupearlier]

Just wondering if I need to delete accounts or stop participating. Not said anything hateful, but have liked comments that certain sensitive folk could perceive as being mean - mainly about keeping female sport for females, and not doing medical experiments on children. Also criticised Humza quite a few times, so that could land me in hot water. Does having GC books count as a hate crime?

This really made me laugh! And they are hammering the hate crime law ads and hate monster shite on TV and radio at the moment. I wonder who came up with the hate monster - it looks like a shite, unhinged Muppet.

And to the OP, given Police Scotland have been told to ignore actual crimes but investigate every 'hate' crime reported to them, I'd do what most of us do here and change details/use a burner email address etc. At least it'll make it a bit more difficult for them.

That's partly perhaps because there's a Scotland section in some newspapers?
This in the Times today covers the background a bit

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/95bfc77d-98c0-4fb3-87bd-1b99f8661fa6?shareToken=6e896f3dfde5263cb842d00d244f4770

It looks like a shite, unhinged Muppet.

That's because it is a shite, unhinged muppet.

I expect that the wonderful women that won't weesh have already crocheted Hate Monster outfits for this coming Spring Collection.

There may be a more appropriate thread for this comment piece , do c&p the link if so - I've never heard the word 'clype' before, but it's unfortunately appropriate Scots has it.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/218c451e-d528-4c09-9292-ca75b01032e1?shareToken=1ebbd99ece840d23a17da7fb4c07cb7e

The word clype is brilliant in normal circumstances. Shame that this act will be known as the Clype's Charter by basically everyone.

And remember, there's no dwelling defence. So if you say something over your own kitchen table to a member of your own family and your captured pre-teen decides that you're not following the current 'acceptable' language, you can expect to get reported.

Because as we have seen, this bill won't be used to actually tackle actual hate but will be weaponised by activists desperate to stop women talking.

It’s unbelievable it’s happening

Jesus Christ. It's likeNazi German

Anyone remember the judicial review 'The Queen on the application of Harry Miller (Claimant) v (1) The College of Policing and (2) The Chief Constable of Humberside (Defendants)'?

“The effect of the police turning up at [the Claimant's] place of work because of his political opinions must not be underestimated. To do so would be to undervalue a cardinal democratic freedom. In this country we have never had a Cheka, a Gestapo or a Stasi. We have never lived in an Orwellian society.” - Justice Julian Knowles

The Judge, Mr Justice Julian Knowles found that while he could not declare the policy unlawful, 'the police’s actions towards the Claimant disproportionately interfered with his right of freedom of expression on the particular facts of this case. The judgment emphasises the vital importance of free speech in a democracy and provides a reminder that free speech includes not only the inoffensive, but the irritating, the contentious, the eccentric, the heretical, the unwelcome and the provocative, and that the freedom only to speak inoffensively is not worth having'.

So even if the Police Scotland is handed a 'lawful policy' on April 1st, a judicial review can and will find the police have disproportionately interfered with a citizen's right of freedom of expression if they interfere with people speaking freely even if it's in an 'unwelcome', 'contentious' or offensive manner.

And I think MNHQ should cite this back to any inquiries about its users in Scotland.

I'm hopeful this will quickly go the way of the Anti-Sectarian nonsense bill that was overturned, but worry about the impact in the meantime.

Bloody hell

When you build something on a falsehood you either admit you’re got it wrong and it causes harm or you keep going via the law to stop people saying so

I’m surprised there isn’t more backlash on this

I work in Polis Scotland (not frontline policing) but this may have a negative impact on my role and I'm dreading it. Plus I'm staunchly GC so doubly fucked. My colleagues however don't have a clue this is coming into play on the 1st. Another ill-thought out policy by these shower of shites.

There’s a couple of posters on the JKR thread who speak with such anger at women this is a goldmine for them

I’m amazed at this

It makes me think of the famous 'First they came for the Jews' piece.

Most people hear about this and assume that it will only affect violent radical extremists and not ordinary folk calmly expressing what always used to be very uncontroversial mainstream understandings of basic facts.

The law is there to protect us from the baddies; but when the law is deliberately subtly changed in order to make us the baddies, it's easy to only realise how it plays out once it's far too late.

No reasonable person at all wants violence or genuine hate speech to be allowed to go unchallenged; but only people with a very narcissistic perspective and/or nefarious ulterior motive would ever think to include people who happen not to share your personal beliefs in this category.

@Shouldgetupearlier as far as know (and of course, I'm not a lawyer or polis) no, things you did or said before 1 April aren't covered by the legislation as no crime existed at that point so you couldn't commit it.

I think PoPoScot are between a rock and a hard place, they have to be seen to be doing something and of course hate speech - genuine hate speech - is a massive issue in a racist, sectarian (and misogynistic) Scotland. I don't expect there to be a wave of prosecutions, and I expect the TRAs will be after bigger fish: MN itself for allowing women to express views, Women Won't Wheest or similar. And JK. I think she'll be the first test case actually.

I'll definitely be getting a new burner acc tho, I'm not making it easy for anyone.

hate speech - genuine hate speech - is a massive issue in a racist, sectarian (and misogynistic) Scotland.

Agreed. It's a bit bizarre that misogyny isn't included in the hate crime bill and the long delayed separate misogyny bill will include males. It's almost as if hate crimes against women aren't seen as that important.

It's not a huge surprise really.

Linguistic derail again...

I'm familiar with a Welsh verb clapio / clepian meaning to gossip or carry tales and found that there's a noun for someone who does that i.e. 'clep', borrowed from dialect English.

Evidently the same word as 'clype' / 'clipe'.

(goes off to pore in Joseph Wright's dictionary instead of doing something useful)

But MNHQ is in England. They can't be governed by laws from other jurisdictions. The Miller judicial review already emphasised the primacy of freedom of speech, including offensive and unwelcome speech, in England & Wales.

What the SNP dictates cannot be imposed on MNHQ. And why would MNHQ reveal who their Scots posters are if they can't see a crime? Are Police Scotland really going to be issuing warrants in London? (See Miller ...)

Holding GC views is legal though, isn’t it, as Maya Forsater proved in her case? I can’t see that you can be prosecuted for hate speech for expressing legally held views.

Hey @Shouldgetupearlier as things now stand, there are very few circumstances where we'd share a poster's details. Aside from taking your privacy very seriously, we are compliant with GDPR. We don't have to comply with a police request, for example as it's a request, not an order but we look at these things on a case-by-case basis.

Our Privacy Policy has an Exceptional circumstances section that gives more info but do ask if anything is unclear.

Isn't the problem with this Act the perception element?

If someone else perceives what you say as hateful, then what you say constitutes a crime.

Which means that you can hold a legal belief, but in practical terms you cannot express it.

Good piece by MBM on NCHI's -

murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2024/02/23/he-says-she-says-how-police-scotland-policy-risks-weaponising-hate-crime/

Crucial also is the 'reasonable person' aspect.

Flawed and unwelcome though this legislation is on its own, the series of decisions not to include misogyny (or, sex as an aggravating factor) in it have shown the women of Scotland exactly what their governing body think of them. It's a train crash followed by a car crash.

So i need to write down everything i hate and have a final rant on march 31st?! If its posts on MN i guess complainers have no way of determining whether you live in Scotland