Plans to scrap exams for 15 and 16 yr olds

[Fandabedodgy]

What do we all think of the plans to scrap Nat 5 exams?

Lots of positives but no exams in S4 means the first time a young person sits an exam is at Highers.

That will be quite a shock to the system.

www.agcc.co.uk/news-article/exams-set-to-be-scrapped-for-15-and-16-year-olds-in-scotland

Link didn't work for me.

I did read the proposals a few weeks ago though and wasn't convinced.

More work for teachers no doubt.

Couldn't get the link to work but also covered here https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58406098 and https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/10829579/exams-scrapped-national-fives-scotland-fourth-year/

"proposals suggest pupils will be judged on coursework alongside a "Scottish diploma" which factors in extra-curricular activities such as Scouts or Girl Guides, playing sport or volunteering" What a pile of pish.

So the kids who are not up to Higher exams will leave school at the end of S4 with an "everyone's a winner" certificate which will be totally meaningless. The kids who are continuing on to doing their Highers in S5 will be pissing about in S4 with putting together all of this bastardised D of E scheme evidence to present to SQA for a certificate which is immediately disregarded when they sit their Highers the following year.

There are numerous courses which ask for Nat 5 passes in Maths, others which require English.

It's yet ANOTHER dumbing down of the curriculum so that the Scot Gov can kid on that everyone's achieving the same. Narrow the achievement by giving everyone a prize.

My first thoughts are that this was more dumbing down of Scottish education, but also that a system based on course work and extracurricular activities will widen the rich-poor gap even more. Parents with resources and ability will be all over this, make sure course work is done to a high standard and enrol their kids in Scouts or whatever from an early age (because waiting lists can actually be quite long..), whereas those who aren't as engaged for whatever reason won't be able to help with course work and may be less able to spend money on extracurriculars.

It’s a terrible idea for the reasons outlined above, which means that the Scottish government will go for it as they are thick as mince.

So the kids who are not up to Higher exams will leave school at the end of S4 with an "everyone's a winner" certificate which will be totally meaningless.

^ totally agree with this

It's a dreadful idea. More work for teachers. Widen attainment gap. Cheapen extra curricular achievements as schools will force kids through so individual endeavour will not be rewarded. Dreadful. When they scrapped N4 exams (or their equivalent) we all protested as it devalued exams: now they're trying to scrap the entire 'quali' year. Sometimes I think I'll not be a teacher till I retire.

Revision for exams helps pupils solidify the full NAT5 content and skills they need to build on for the step up to Highers.

The trial and error of revision and exam prep ds discovered during his NAT5s prepared him for his Highers and I think he would have struggled without that experience.

Terrible idea. The learning experience of sitting exams at nat 5 level is crucial to success in higher exams.

My DD will likely have left school by the time any changes are implemented but I do wonder if something similar to what the USA has would work, like a GPA or something as opposed to exams?

The US education system has a very bad reputation. Very weak academically.

It's so depressing to see schools dumbing down even further. They're trying to dumb down an entire country. How can Scotland flourish when no-one is educated?

Because it's all about "closing the attainment gap". They don't like that children in the leafy suburbs achieve better exam results than the kids in the high-rise schemes. (In general). But rather than doing the hard work on looking at ways to raise the achievement of the deprived kids, they are instead concentrating on decreasing the achievement of the high-performers.

Yes @GulesMeansRed , that is definitely one way of closing the attainment gap - bringing down the top end.

Of course, if we remove the measure (N5) we have yet another way of closing the gap.

Everyone loses.

Of course I understand wanting to raise the level of underprivileged children. But when it comes to deliberately lowering levels among all children, are they doing it because of ideology, or is it to pander to the people they think are more likely to vote for them?

I have a DC who has just sat Nat 5s. These were the first exams the dc had ever sat. Their exam technique was awful and they made lots of mistakes in their prelims (not allocating time properly so ran out of time before finishing the paper, not reading the questions properly). Nat 5 exams are good for young people to used to exams before sitting highers.

So depressing.

i moved back from England and I’m starting to really regret it.

massively higher taxes ( income and Lbtt)
services are not better than in England
too much poverty

scrappy public buildings and roads a couple mess ( pot holes and weeds)

most of all education ( primary school but standards not like England ; lots of political indoctrination and less learning)

You can only get in to Scottish university if you come from deprived areas!

this is like the final nail in the coffin .
we need external exams as this is the only fair way. Some people are actually brighter than a well rounded person a teacher may favour and can thrive through exams.

It’s like you can’t trust the Scottish government at all. Destroying kids futures though their ideology. taxing achievement to death

Absolutely @spiderplantparty, I'm the same. Also DS1 gets extra time and he need to know how that works in practice.
DS2 has ASD, despite my best efforts, he refuses to engage in groups or community events, it just causes him too much stress. That aspect of whatever curriculum this is will disadvantage him, as well as young people who are economically and socially disadvantaged.

Getting into practice for exams is a big issue. DS has just finished his 2nd year at Uni. He did not sit his Highers in 2020, his S6 exams in 2021 were by assessment/teacher grades, the 2022 uni exams were all online/coursework based. So 2023 is the first time this cohort of 20 year olds have sat exams since their 2019 Nat 5s.

DS reports a higher percentage than expected have failed. A lot of that will be down to poor technique and time management. What will happen of course when they introduce this ridiculous achievement certificate for all idea is that schools where a large number of children go on to do Highers is that there will be 4th year exams and Prelims to get them into the exam groove. And the ones that will lose out are the kids who leave after S4 for work/college course with a certificate saying they've been to scouts and volunteered at the local gardening group.

Children in private schools will gain further advantage for sitting their Highers in S5. Most private schools have the children sitting exams, in the school hall with invigilators present, from 2nd year onwards to get them used to how it all works.

Not to mention that many do GCSEs and A levels already

There aren’t the opportunities in the community to provide enough volunteering opportunities - most places don’t accept under 16s as volunteers (probably because they are often more a liability than help). And other activities are hugely dependent on income. But also what about children with ASN? My son can’t manage mainstream clubs. He is likely to do a mixture of Nat 4s and 5s (assuming they exist then) so will he leave with nothing to show?

I note this has arisen out of the Hayward review of qualifications but they don’t seemed to have actually reviewed the qualifications themselves - just decided to add extra things around the edges.

Agree on the kids volunteering. My eldest has been volunteering in a charity shop since he was 14 - he's now 20. I have been there a similar length of time. But he's a rarity in that he's stuck at it, we regularly get kids doing D of E who are required to do 1 hour a week for 12 weeks - and that's ALL they want to do. They have to get all the Health and Safety training, all the form filling, setting up on the system, training on the till, fire safety etc etc and the most you ever get out of them is 12 hours. And you don't even get that because most say they're going to do 4-5 after school, turn up about 4.10-4.15, get their coat off, have a wee chat with their friends, make a cup of tea, put one or two items on shelf and then piss off home at 4.50 when Mum arrives to pick them up. Safeguarding in the chain where DS volunteers means that when you have under 18s in the shop there must also be two over 18s present, one of whom must have an enhanced PVG check. It's a total faff and many shop managers are just deciding it's not worth the hassle.

And no organisation wants kids there because they HAVE to be there, not because they want to be there.

I’m hoping this is one of those suggestions that would be great in a perfect world but never actually comes to anything. My kids (not just my actual children but ones I know and love) with disabilities already can’t do Scouts and football and drama and marshalling for bloody park run. So they just have to hang everything on Highers landing when aren’t in hospital and when the stars aline for their fecking reasonable adjustments to be present. The irony is 1 is particularly academic, amazingly so but not if they have to do presentations and group work and an interpretive dance. Sorry. Rant over.

That's my fear.

And the fear of some teacher friends. That Nat 5 exams are an essential experience to prepare for Highers.

Same here. DS excels at maths and science type subjects but the prelims for subjects like history and English he really struggled with exam technique. I dread to think if he hadn't had that learning experience at nat 5 level and has to sit his first proper exams at higher.