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Welcome to Scotsnet - discuss all aspects of life in Scotland, including relocating, schools and local areas.

Guilt Free Railing 17

991 replies

WouldBeGood · 01/01/2022 10:05

Happy New Thread, Railers!

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MaxNormal · 06/01/2022 07:42

www.coryzue.com/writing/coming-clean/

This is a very interesting (long!) essay from an unvaccinated American in South Africa who doesn't at all fit the thick Trump supporter cliché.

titsintiers · 06/01/2022 07:48

Sorry there's no logic prevailing on the exemption front @MaxNormal, it really makes me worry for society.

I'm glad you feel comfortable here for the moment too, January is a bloody hard slog.

WouldBeGood · 06/01/2022 08:30

That’s such an interesting article @MaxNormal. Very measured.

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WouldBeGood · 06/01/2022 08:33

I’m railing against the “other nations good” mantra: France, with its crazed rules and fancy masks had 325,000 cases yesterday

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WouldBeGood · 06/01/2022 08:33

335k even

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ResilienceWanker · 06/01/2022 08:37

@ecceromani

Remember 2019 when we would go to work when feeling well and also go to work when not feeling well and probably only not go to work if we were really, really not well? It’s so complicated these days…

Oh jeez I know! And people seem incapable of working this out for themselves now.
I got involved in an argument over on the coronavirus boards couple months back when there was all the problems with that lab in England giving people the incorrect PCR results.

There was a poster who worked in a school going on about being made to go to work as she'd been given a negative result even although she was so very illConfused
Wonder what she did in 2019🤷🏼‍♀️

Ha! Yes... this precisely! I confess I did sometimes go to work when I probably shouldn't have in terms of spreading nasty cold viruses around my colleagues (before the days of being able to wfh, and even after, sometimes if there was a particular reason that couldn't be covered by anyone else). But even I could work out that if I couldn't get out of bed without falling over, I wasn't going in... Sometimes I could scrape through an email or call from my deathbed if necessary...sometimes I couldn't.

Have we lost that ability to decide for ourselves if we're OK to work or not without knowing exactly what kind of virus we have?!

ResilienceWanker · 06/01/2022 08:54

@Scottishskifun

I don't understand trying to force people who don't have a medical exemption to be vaccinated surely it just makes people dig their heels in further?!

I understand from a health pressure perspective with unvaccinated being at risk of being sicker and needing longer treatment time on average but forcing people isn't going to get rid of this.

From being very sick myself I would advocate any reduction in that risk if possible but if people don't want it then I kind of think we'll you have made your bed.....(medical reasons completely outwith this!!)

Yes, I totally agree. The thing that is going to make unvaccinated people have the vaccine is seeing that their outcomes will be (on average) worse without the vaccine than with, whatever their age/ health status etc. Why can't we just wait for that to happen in their own time?! Some may still decide its not for them, which is their right, and although annoying in terms of the health service (as they haven't done something that could have avoided or reduced their need for treatment), they can be treated accordingly if and when they need it. Surely that isn't a novel approach?!

The arguments for "forced" (or heavily pressured) vaccination don't really hold up when there is no particular community benefit from most people being vaccinated protecting those that can't be. But as covid vaccination doesn't stop people catching or spreading the virus (yes, it reduces it, but it doesn't stop it altogether) the main benefit of the vaccine, and the only one that can be relied on on an individual level, is to the person actually vaccinated. And that should be their own choice (maybe a no-brainer, but still).

MaxNormal · 06/01/2022 08:55

@titsintiers thank you. I just don't think there's any anything yet tbh, but yes I feel safe enough for now, it would be some u-turn from Westminster to drag us in the Austria direction of travel and I can't see the backbenchers being very happy, and there's only so far Sturgeon can logically diverge from that.

Y0uCann0tBeSer10us · 06/01/2022 09:38

I'm glad I'm not the only one uncomfortable with the direction of travel in societies around the world when it comes to vaccines. I'm triple vaccinated through choice because for me I felt that on balance it was the safest thing to do for me. I am under no illusions about the vaccine being 'completely safe' and that it does indeed carry risks and realise that for the vast majority of people COVID is little more than a cold, particularly younger people. I totally understand and respect an individual's decision to take their chances with COVID rather than the vaccine and I am absolutely horrified that this would ever be anything other than a completely free choice. Bodily autonomy is a fundamental human right and shouldn't be abandoned because the health service has been run into the ground! I would tend towards this view even if the vaccine did provide sterilising immunity, but it doesn't even come close to this, and indeed after a few months protection against infection drops quite low. The whole of Europe, irrespective of whatever restrictions and measures and despite vaccination, are now seeing surges of infection. Clearly being vaccinated doesn't stop spread (and as above, after a few months, isn't even particularly effective at stopping infection), and yet countries around Europe and the world are making it mandatory! Countries that we are told are caring, tolerant societies that we should be emulating (Europe = Good, UK = Bad, as pp above), such as Germany, are putting into law that all adults MUST be vaccinated, although Germany apparently stopped short of allowing physical force (so that's OK then Hmm). I mean, what the actual fuck is going on in the world?? It's like everyone has lost their minds!

I can't help thinking that there is a political aspect to this, people are suffering (especially in countries where there have been hard restrictions - see Djokovic in Australia currently) and still there is no end in sight. Governments can't admit that a virus is going to do its thing regardless and the measures they've imposed are largely ineffective, so a scape goat is needed. Who better than the unvaccinated? Selfish, unclean, deserve to have their lives made hell (according to Macron) for not making the 'right' choice. Never mind that even if every person was vaccinated it wouldn't stop COVID - the vaccine just isn't that good (although great at stopping severe disease). The scariest thing is how few people are standing up against this narrative. The only people I can see in the UK are backbench Tories, and fortunately Confused they will probably ensure that the UK doesn't go down this route. Given free reign I think Sturgeon would happily make them mandatory, so thank fuck she doesn't have that much power. I wonder if in a few years people will look back and think what the hell were we doing? So many things that used to be unthinkable are now actively pushed by many in power.

ResilienceWanker · 06/01/2022 09:55

On the macron thing, I was confused at all the outrage of his "I'm going to piss them off" thing. That's probably not the kind of language you'd use in polite company, but isn't hugely awful here (wouldn't be too surprised for BJ to use it in parliament, even if there were lots of tuts and faux cries of outrage from the other benches). And then I saw that the actual word in French was something like "emmerder" and every schoolboy knows what merde means! So I suppose the literal translation is something like "dump in a pile of shit" which kind of explains the outrage Grin

Lockdownbear · 06/01/2022 10:01

The only other thing could be the know something they aren't saying but somehow I doubt it.

But then if the unvaccinated are still capable of over whelming the hospitals for the rest of us. Then maybe they have a point. Or is the real worry the next strain, mutation is more likely to happen in an unvaccinated person?

Is it a case of if your unvaccinated you take full responsibility for any covid related illness? Ie your bottom of the cue for treatment for a covid related illness.

curly100 · 06/01/2022 10:30

Towards the bottom of the latest guidance for businesses/workplaces www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-general-guidance-for-safer-workplaces/pages/sector-specific-measures/ it says that we're not to pass on our grubby germs whatever type of grubby germs they are:

Stay at home if you are unwell (beyond COVID-19 symptoms)

Businesses should support staff to stay at home if they are unwell even if they don’t have COVID-19 symptoms as the individual may still have an illness which could be passed onto other people.

MaxNormal · 06/01/2022 10:31

I think there's more of an issue with mutations occurring in immune compromised people.
Not their fault obviously!

ResilienceWanker · 06/01/2022 10:52

@curly100

Towards the bottom of the latest guidance for businesses/workplaces www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-general-guidance-for-safer-workplaces/pages/sector-specific-measures/ it says that we're not to pass on our grubby germs whatever type of grubby germs they are:

Stay at home if you are unwell (beyond COVID-19 symptoms)

Businesses should support staff to stay at home if they are unwell even if they don’t have COVID-19 symptoms as the individual may still have an illness which could be passed onto other people.

Crikey. So covid guidance (which is effectively law for businesses I think) is now being used for general public health advice! Interesting... I mean, it's not necessarily bad advice, but in terms of emergency regulation to control the current pandemic, that seems to be stretching their remit a bit, surely!

I suppose that kind of guidance becomes a lot easier now a lot of office workers have proved they CAN wfh. Though still, I can imagine it would be difficult for a young worker to tell their line manager they can't come to do their important client presentation because they've got a headache or a bunged up nose. Also, people in retail or similar where they can't wfh also wouldn't really have that flexibility. They'd have to go in or not get paid (or only ssp, which wouldn't go on for that long...) .

I had a constant low level illness for about a year when DS started with childcare and I went back to work! I'd have been stuffed if that had been the rules then...

Icannever · 06/01/2022 10:59

I think they really need to have a simple route to exemption from vaccine. I can’t believe they don’t yet, it’s crazy!
Surely if you are excerpt from the vaccine you should be on the priority list for the new drugs instead? That would help with the nhs being overwhelmed too.

If you have a health condition that means you can’t have a vaccine and there is now a treatment that can prevent people getting seriously Ill you should get it the same as immune compromised people whom the vaccine doesn’t work so well for? Seems obvious but would only work if they have a pathway to prove you can’t get it!

Y0uCann0tBeSer10us · 06/01/2022 11:07

@MaxNormal

I think there's more of an issue with mutations occurring in immune compromised people. Not their fault obviously!
Yes, this is my understanding as well. Immunocompromised people are more likely to develop chronic infection because they can't clear it effectively, and the weak selective pressure allows the virus to mutate inside them as a host.
WouldBeGood · 06/01/2022 11:09

SSP only comes in if you are employed, not self employed or the like.

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WouldBeGood · 06/01/2022 11:14

Aargh! Railing against celebs and the fucking Mindful Chef pish. Ads keep popping up. Fearne Cotton and Ben Fogle, both of whom I quite liked. Not now they’re peddling this nonsense.

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WhatWouldTheDoctorDo · 06/01/2022 11:31

@WouldBeGood

SSP only comes in if you are employed, not self employed or the like.
And on the 4th day of absence if not related to covid. So a sniffly retail or hospitality worker wouldn't get paid if staying home for a couple of days with an infectious cold.
mapleleavesreturn · 06/01/2022 11:35

Agree re mindful chef, green chef, HelloFresh etc - the only thing I'll say is that they are easy to cancel if you are on the dates and the discounted boxes can help in Jan. I'm getting bombarded with that too!

If you know anyone with hellofresh you can get a free box, but you have to be on it to make sure you don't get the next one.

mibbelucieachwell · 06/01/2022 11:37

Like pps I worry about mandatory vaccines being the thin end of the wedge of making authoritarian laws seem acceptable. UK govt is quietly passing legislation to make it harder to organise and attend protests. IIRC, people who have attended 2 or more 'disruptive' protests in the previous 5 years can be banned from going to protests or even being in the same area! Stop and search is being expanded and items considered to be going to be used for disruptive protests can be confiscated. Eg bike clamps.

Journalists will find it more difficult to criticise the government too. The BBC is under threat of withdrawal of funding which might explain their unofficial government spokesperson role they seem to take on but all journalists might be more wary than previously.

This is all being slipped in while people are distracted by covid and Brexit.

And just generally, a generation is now used to having governments making it illegal for them to go into other peoples' homes or have people in their home without a legitimate'excuse'. What long term effect will that have?

WouldBeGood · 06/01/2022 11:37

Yes, actually it would affect me, I only get paid fir days I work, so no work, no pay. It’s ok just now as back online 🙄 but if they’re going to push this it’s a nightmare

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MaxNormal · 06/01/2022 11:38

Oh no, I normally like Ben Fogle. What's Mindful Chef when it's at home?

OnceUponAWhine · 06/01/2022 11:38

@WouldBeGood

Aargh! Railing against celebs and the fucking Mindful Chef pish. Ads keep popping up. Fearne Cotton and Ben Fogle, both of whom I quite liked. Not now they’re peddling this nonsense.
Leftfield rail 🤣 but yes, I hear you. I’m being served many ‘meal packs’ endorsed by celebs. Vegan/Plant for January is the zeitgeist.
MaxNormal · 06/01/2022 11:42

@mibbelucieachwell absolutely and there's slim to no scrutiny.
I feel like people in the UK in general believe that nothing properly bad could happen here. The war is no longer in living memory for many, there have been decades of peace, prosperity, progress.

Once rights are lost it's so very hard to get them back. Look at South Africa, Spain, Portugal.... it can be decades. People have to literally die.
Or maybe there would just be apathy now in the 21st century and people would be happy enough to have society move in a direction more akin to China. Individualism is being rebranded as selfish so who knows.
Happy to be told I'm talking complete crap, I'd much prefer to be totally wrong on all of this.