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Welcome to Scotsnet - discuss all aspects of life in Scotland, including relocating, schools and local areas.

Dancing with tiers in my eyes, Weeping for the memory of a life gone by

978 replies

dancemom · 01/09/2021 20:27

New thread, a very appropriate title I feel ...

OP posts:
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14
forfucksakenett · 16/10/2021 14:27

@Mistressiggi

Yes, and everyone's masks are dirty, disgusting and worn incorrectly.
Everyone's? Bold claim.
ElephantOfRisk · 16/10/2021 14:30

Who pished in your cornflakes this morning? Hmm

Plenty of proper experts, you know, ones who haven't been talking bollocks, say that masks are next to useless.

forfucksakenett · 16/10/2021 14:31

@ElephantOfRisk

Who pished in your cornflakes this morning? Hmm

Plenty of proper experts, you know, ones who haven't been talking bollocks, say that masks are next to useless.

What an utterly bizarre and aggressive post.
Scottishskifun · 16/10/2021 14:32

@forfucksakenett and I have stated many many times if the correct specification of mask then it does make a difference or if for reducing face to face transmission then yes.
But there is no study that can be pointed to which show putting a cloth mask on to walk into a cafe or to the toilet decreases the spread of covid.... That's not being a armchair warrior that's pretty obvious.

You also hit the nail on the head.... If worn properly! If changed every 3 hours or when moist, washed on a 60 degree after each wearing if cloth, not touching the front, not pulling it down or repeated use etc etc. Do you do all those things? The only people I know who do are medical professionals!

As for studies actually with delta the studies show that social distancing and mask wearing reduce transmission in the US study. In the Welsh study it was due to ventilation which was a bigger factor in reduction of viral load in the air.

Many studies also show build up in the air in poorly ventilated environments with delta even when people are wearing masks. With this variant which is now dominant ventilation is by far the biggest way to reduce transmission not a mask.

forfucksakenett · 16/10/2021 14:33

The vast majority of reputable scientists seem to suggest that masks used correctly are pretty effective. I'd actually be interested to know which 'experts' you are referring to? Please don't say Ivor Cummins 🤦🏻‍♀️

ElephantOfRisk · 16/10/2021 14:36

Nah, not aggressive, just very noticeable that there is no squabbling or accusations chucked around until you arrive. So I'm off. Enjoy.

Scottishskifun · 16/10/2021 14:39

@forfucksakenett our numbers went up because of return of schools and not spacing of easing of restrictions so double whammy across a greater age range hence their were 2 age categories groups which saw higher peak numbers.

I also find it slightly ironic that you have been extremely quiet on here for quite a while when numbers were high but as they are coming down your suddenly hailing Scotlands success story of control measures.... 😂

forfucksakenett · 16/10/2021 14:51

@Scottishskifun I'm not responsible for the numbers so why would that stop me posting?

If you read my last post that's exactly what I've said. If the rest of the UK are in a school related peak (which I doubt because they've been back, what, five weeks?) then we need to see what happens when they come out the other side.

I'm not sure that suggesting experts might know what they are talking about is throwing accusations about.

I must admit that when I got that email from the Zoe app I thought I better check on what mental gymnastics many posters on this thread were going through to still suggest that everything the SG were doing was oh so wrong while everything Boris and co are doing is oh so right. You didn't disappoint guys Smile

Scottishskifun · 16/10/2021 15:19

@forfucksakenett it's just very convenient that you went from a very vocal poster to very quiet when numbers went sky high and are back as soon as there is improvement and hailing SG control measures!

Many people are sick of being told how to live their lives rather than being able to make decisions and conduct their own risk assessment yes.
Would love to see the study which shows wearing a mask after sitting in a space without one on for a hour makes a blind bit of difference.....

Given one of your favourite topics is to blame WM for most failings and say SG are wonderful it's a bit pot calling kettle black don't you think?! 🤔😉😂

forfucksakenett · 16/10/2021 15:30

@Scottishskifun I would LOVE for you to find one piece of evidence where I have blamed WM for something in the SG remit.

You will be a long time looking Grin

forfucksakenett · 16/10/2021 15:30

And many people are very happy to continue having their risks assessed by actual experts 🤷🏻‍♀️ I'm not sure why that would be controversial.

Y0uCann0tBeSer10us · 16/10/2021 15:51

I actually agree with @forfucksakenett that England's recent rise isn't a back to school spike because the timing doesn't add up. But I wouldn't call it a 'spike' either, not yet anyway. England has had a few gentle increases and decreases since freedom day but nothing very dramatic, and in fact looks relatively stable to me. Consistent with a kind of endemic equilibrium actually, with new immunity balanced by waning immunity. Some experts like Tim Spector seem to worry that this has settled at far too high a level because they expect it to surge over Winter and crash the NHS. Others are more optimistic that boosting the vulnerable will be enough to minimise hospitalizations to manageable levels, and point out that recent spikes in school age children haven't actually bled through to older age groups that much.

I also think it's obvious that cases in Scotland falling in recent weeks has nothing at all to do with measures, as these have been the same for a couple of months now. Cases started to rise here after level -1 day, and we're then boosted by schools returning very soon afterwards. I suspect we had a much larger peak than England because we still had a lot more susceptible people, but having worked through that population we've generated more immunity and will now settle at a base level too. If we've done enough work (so to speak) to reach equilibrium, I expect we'll bob gently along too, and hopefully avoid the massive spikes going forward. The fact cases came down on their own without additional measures (and they were down before vaccine passports came in) makes me hopeful this is the case, and we seem to be settling at around 2500 a day.

Personally, I think the current situation is probably as good as it gets infection wise, short of imposing lockdowns which just create an immune debt that has to be 'paid' in spikes later. I think a face covering on a crowded train might have some effect if worn properly, but struggle to believe that wearing it for a few steps in a restaurant makes any difference at all. I think we may as well ditch all remaining restrictions, because there is no more progress to be made with them and they're just doing harm at this point. People need to be exposed to every day bugs to keep their immune systems healthy, and this idea that you can prevent disease us just storing up problems long term.

Pootle40 · 16/10/2021 16:08

@ElephantOfRisk

Who pished in your cornflakes this morning? Hmm

Plenty of proper experts, you know, ones who haven't been talking bollocks, say that masks are next to useless.

Was just about to jump in on the masks.........
sartorius · 16/10/2021 16:08

I think the problem England are having is there's substantial parts of their 3 main cities (London, Birmingham and Manchester) where the vaccine uptake is less than 65% of over 18s.
We have nowhere like that in Scotland fortunately.
I was quite shocked to hear this recently and not really sure how they can improve that.
Don't think it's necessarily a demographic where compulsory vaccine to go to a nightclub or big football match will make much difference

forfucksakenett · 16/10/2021 16:15

@Pootle40 feel free to enlighten me which scientists/experts/public health officials say that masks are ineffective/need ditched.

@sartorius that's very interesting and actually I think that now we are at this stage there's not much governments can do to make huge changes. I do think ditching everything is likely to cause higher numbers and make life difficult for vulnerable people though.

sartorius · 16/10/2021 16:19

This is the link @forfucksakenett

coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map/vaccinations

sartorius · 16/10/2021 16:24

That map says it's for over 12s.
it was Tim Spector of Zoe study I heard talking about it for over 18s and it is actually only 1 or 2% more

Y0uCann0tBeSer10us · 16/10/2021 16:30
on the science behind natural vs vaccine immunity and implications for mandatory vaccination. He talks mainly about the US but concludes that people who have had COVID probably don't need to have the vaccine too, and in fact presents some data indicating this might be riskier than in people who haven't had COVID.

The reason I really like this video is that he seems to really grasp that antibodies are just one part of the immune system, and indeed presents data showing that antibody levels weren't a good predictor of immunity. As someone who has worked in immunology for a while, I've often been frustrated by the antibodies=immunity narrative that has been so pervasive, and completely discounts the memory parts of the immune system (which might be why the models are always overly pessimistic). This is important, because a lot of the 'expert' discourse on this uses antibody levels as a read out to argue that natural immunity is less robust than vaccines, therefore everyone needs a vaccine. He shows data that indicates this isn't the case. In fact, even Tim Spector who I've had a lot of respect for, has started talking about antibodies as evidence for waning immunity, which I find personally disappointing because I thought he had a better grasp of immunology than that. I don't dismiss expert opinion, but I do recognise that there is a range of expert opinion, and if an expert talks in a way that I know is misleading or false I do notice.

Mistressiggi · 16/10/2021 16:52

@forfucksakenett you misunderstood me, I was referring to the view I hear others expressing (about dirty masks) that's not what I think myself and I am in favour of keeping masks in crowded places much as I find it hard to work in one myself.

StarryEyeSurprise · 16/10/2021 16:57

@sartorius

I think the problem England are having is there's substantial parts of their 3 main cities (London, Birmingham and Manchester) where the vaccine uptake is less than 65% of over 18s. We have nowhere like that in Scotland fortunately. I was quite shocked to hear this recently and not really sure how they can improve that. Don't think it's necessarily a demographic where compulsory vaccine to go to a nightclub or big football match will make much difference
That is interesting. The low uptake is shocking and this is where the pis* poor messaging from the government throughout the pandemic, has an impact.
sartorius · 16/10/2021 17:10

Unfortunately I think it's more complex than that @StarryEyeSurprise
plenty areas in England with exactly the same message on vaccine like Devon, Cornwall, easy anglia, most of north east all have much higher vaccine uptake than the major cities.
I understand it's thought to be cultural and ethnic differences having an effect. We certainly don't have this in Scotland to same extent

WouldBeGood · 16/10/2021 17:25

Goodness, wasn’t expecting the thread to have gone like this!

Anyway, I posted a Swiss study the other day that pulled together lots of data which showed that masks don’t work. Proper experts 😉

StarryEyeSurprise · 16/10/2021 17:45

Yes, that's what I was referring to also.
My friend is the community nurse in Govanhill. She also spent several years nursing in London and some were in the same role as she is now. She said there are, of course, issues in trying to reach people where she is in Glasgow and her job is far from easy. However, she feels there is a bigger gulf between the government down south and those living in some areas ( e.g. Tower Hamlets) than there is here. More of a 'mistrust' as she put it. This may be why there is less uptake.
That being said, I haven't actually looked at the map in great detail so TH may not be an area with low uptake!

forfucksakenett · 16/10/2021 18:24

[quote Mistressiggi]@forfucksakenett you misunderstood me, I was referring to the view I hear others expressing (about dirty masks) that's not what I think myself and I am in favour of keeping masks in crowded places much as I find it hard to work in one myself.[/quote]
Apologies! 🤦🏻‍♀️

forfucksakenett · 16/10/2021 18:26

On this thread @WouldBeGood ? I'd be very interested to read that.