Is Scotland becoming anti Semitic?

[boompah]

Jewish friends thinking of leaving Glasgow for London. Feeling there has been a political shift where they are feeling isolated.

I find it so sad and not something I've been aware of but don't want to diminish their experiences.

Anyone hearing similar comments?

As I’ve said before, depends whether you’re antisemitic when you condemn those factors; are you also condemning Hamas or is your sole focus on Israel (the only Jewish state and democracy in the ME) or also the crazy despots surrounding them? Also, are you prepared to listen to Jews on the receiving end of antisemitism? Or are you explaining antisemitism to them? Would you do this to any other minority?

I’ve wondered about this. If the very vocal and justified support for the rights of Palestinians has had the horrible effect of allowing anti Semites to creep out from under their rocks. I live in a part of the southside of Glasgow which has I think the biggest concentration of Jewish people in Scotland, there’s an orthodox family on my street and the synagogue is a stone’s throw away.

@Gothichouse40

I disagree with the previous poster who said anti- catholic feeling only existed in Glasgow. That is a myth. It is also experienced in other parts of Scotland. I know this for a fact.

Indeed, this is very true.

@Cherrycee it’s good to see someone saying it as it is. The Israeli government deserves criticism for their actions but they are in no way a representative of the Jewish population.

People often forget to differentiate when it comes to Jewish people, but you can bet their arse they differentiate between the Chinese government (for instance) and Chinese people because they know damn fine it isn’t acceptable to tar everyone with the same brush and governments are very rarely representative of the population they govern. Ffs Boris Johnston has cheated and sired how many bastards now, but that doesn’t mean the British population are cheaters and feckless uninterested parents.

Is Scotland becoming anti-Semitic?

This links to something I've been wondering about for a while. I grew up and lived in Scotland (Perth, Dundee, Edinburgh) until I was 33 and I'm pretty certain that Scotland was at least as racist as anywhere else in the UK. At school in the 1980s racism was the norm - towards anyone of Asian (Indian / Pakistani / Bangladeshi) origin, towards Irish people, towards Jewish people. And homophobia? It was totally the norm. There's always been a bit of a "man's a man fir a' that" bonhomie to fall back on, and sticking up for the underdog, but on the whole I don't remember Scotland as being particularly open minded or non-racist.

So it looks like there has been this total reinvention of late - rainbow politics, blue hair, tolerance, diversity, everyone's welcome, come on in etc. It's just bizarre to me. I read somewhere, referring to a similar change in Ireland, that cultures which were formerly very narrow-minded and repressive tend to over-correct and go too far the other way once they let the brakes off, until they self-correct again.

So to answer your question OP I don't think Scotland is becoming anti-Semitic: I think there has always been anti-Semitism (and anti- many other things) and this can rise back to the surface pretty easily when it's tested by something like the upsurge of violence in the ME.

Glasgow has always aligned itself to the Palestinian cause and a hatred of the Jewish state which can spill into anti-semitism. It plays into lots of the narratives that many people in Glasgow want to align with - poor plucky underdog fighting a horrid wealthy controlling state (Israel/ England) . Coupled with the fact that Glasgow has a large Muslim population especially in areas of the south side living in predominantly but not entirely poor areas whereas the “Jewish” areas like Giffnock, Whitecraigs and Newton Mearns are wealthy. In the desire to be right-on, some people aren’t even aware of the antisemitism or rationalise it away.

there's been a general rise, I've got friends who are pro Palestine, marching etc and some of the stuff posted recently by them has been making me very uncomfortable, I know that they're desperately sad about what's happening in Gaza. There's been anti-semitic chanting reported at the rallies, which is a shame as they're undermining the Palestinian cause by doing that.

I don't know that London is any better, but Keir Starmer is tackling it in the Labour Party and I can see why your friend might be thinking strength in numbers, I don't think you can diminish their experience, whatever people are feeling it is what they are feeling.

Much as I'm no fan of the SNP, I can't think that Sturgeon would allow violence against the Scottish jewish community, that seems unlikely to me in terms of the worst case scenarios that run through people's minds.

@boompah

Jewish friends thinking of leaving Glasgow for London. Feeling there has been a political shift where they are feeling isolated.

I find it so sad and not something I've been aware of but don't want to diminish their experiences.

Anyone hearing similar comments?

You say they are thinking of leaving due to a 'political shift.' I feel that more are becoming aware of the atrocities in Palestine. The FM has condemned it yet the PM has stated he doesn't agree with the ICC investigation into the Israeli Government and Hamas. I do, of course, understand that Jews ( even those living in Israel) do not agree with the actions of the Israeli Government. I've spent time in the area and met wonderful Israelis and wonderful Palestinians. I was out there to study and attended tutorials by professors from both sides. The Israeli professor said that he doesn't foresee Israel still existing in 50 years ( I was out there when ISIS were at their peak though). My heart breaks over the situation in Gaza . I personally hope that the increase in international outcry has an impact but with the UK and, disappointingly, the US ( Biden) failing to push for change, it's hard to imagine the bombings in Gaza stopping permanently. I can only dream that in my lifetime, we'll look back on Gaza and the occupied West Bank like we do now the apartheid in South Africa, and wonder how it ever was that such a horrid situation was accepted by the international community
Apologies for de railing your thread op.

@StarryEyeSurprise

There are only 15 million Jews in the whole world. Most live in Israel. If you hope it doesn't exist you do realise that will lead to many Jews no longer existing?

What happens to the Jews? Where do they go or feel safe?

I didn't say I hope that Israel doesn't exist in the future! Did you actually read my post? It doesn't appear so.

Why even mention it? Jews are frightened. That doesn't help.

@StarryEyeSurprise has provided a good example of why some Jewish people feel they are not supported in Glasgow. Associating Jewish people living in the U.K. for many generations with the actions of others in a nation state where they don’t live and may not support. The right on people of Glasgow wouldn’t dream of doing it to any other races or religions but it seems fair game to blame any Jewish person anywhere in the world for the Israeli states atrocities in Gaza.

More likely we’ll look back on these cranks hiding their Jew-hate behind faux compassion for the Palestinians, making absurd comparisons with South Africa while ignoring greater atrocities throughout the world. I challenge you to find condemnation of Iran, Turkey or China from the lips of these obsessives. Why? No Jews, no news.

This article is worth a read.

www.effiedeans.com/2021/05/why-do-they-only-demonstrate-when-jews.html

An extract from it...

"It is reasonable for people to criticise Israel to the same extent that they criticise any other country for doing the same thing. It’s also reasonable to criticise Hamas. Any war between people is regrettable and should be avoided. But the word for people who only demonstrate when wars involve Jews is anti-Semitism."

Apart from I didn't link Jews to the actions of the IDF and specifically separated the actions of the Israeli Government from Jews living in Israel.
Have you been to Israel? Studied the holocaust there? I have. But go ahead - paint me as an ignorant Glaswegian.

It should be clear that Scottish Jewish people fully in support of Israel don't deserve anti Semitism. I've got sympathy for people getting carried away and calling Israel's actions in Gaza apartheid, ethnic cleansing, Zionist racism, (all of which I've seen from friends) and so on, but I don't think it's helpful in getting to a solution particularly.

If you want any conflict to get better, demonising and condemning the other side has never helped.

@StarryEyeSurprise

“it's hard to imagine the bombings in Gaza stopping permanently. I can only dream that in my lifetime, we'll look back on Gaza and the occupied West Bank like we do now the apartheid in South Africa”

This tells us everything we need to know. No mention of Hamas’ rockets or human shields? No mention of no free elections? Just Israel. And apartheid. There is no apartheid.
And your studying the Holocaust is Israel doesn’t wash with me. I am involved with challenging antisemitism and know of too many Jews making aliyah. I listen to them rather than whitewash.

I did mention Hamas actually. I'm not sure how you can know 'too many' Jews making the trip over. It's a strange comment to make.

Why on a thread about Jewish people in Glasgow did you start on about bombing in Gaza? Are Jewish people in Glasgow to blame for another country’s government? Do you blame people of other religions for all the atrocities carried out globally by people of the same religion? Why mention Israel at all?

Oh you mentioned Hamas in passing, sure. Just the glaring omission when referencing Israeli “bombing”. Why? And come to think of it, why mention on a thread on Jewish fears? Perhaps to illustrate the point perfectly.

Why is commenting on too many Jews making Aliyah strange on a thread about Jews fleeing antisemitism? Like I said, my spare time is devoted to challenging antisemitism. Most of my friends live in London, they don’t feel safety in numbers with the recent convoys and increasing threat, and Nazi-esq calls to boycott so several are considering Israel.

The op mentioned Israel in their first post.

It's not just another country. It's the Jewish homeland which prior to that wasn't their homeland.
I'm not defending anti semitism but it is a special case and not just a place someone happened to be born.
The whole lot is blanking ridiculous imv. All these people who are NOT genuinely religious being anti Semitic, and anti Catholic. It's just an excuse to be nasty.
But I think the lack of a thriving forwarding looking society, lack of jobs, appalling drug problems and alcoholism etc. means that people have nothing to focus on in their lives, hence the harking back.
And independence unless it brings huge prosperity (hahahaha) means it will probably get worse.

@Duke4

Oh you mentioned Hamas in passing, sure. Just the glaring omission when referencing Israeli “bombing”. Why? And come to think of it, why mention on a thread on Jewish fears? Perhaps to illustrate the point perfectly.

Why is commenting on too many Jews making Aliyah strange on a thread about Jews fleeing antisemitism? Like I said, my spare time is devoted to challenging antisemitism. Most of my friends live in London, they don’t feel safety in numbers with the recent convoys and increasing threat, and Nazi-esq calls to boycott so several are considering Israel.

Israel has great people, amazing food and wonderful culture. I learned so much at The International School for Holocaust Studies. It's not necessarily going to be safer there than in the UK though. Strength in numbers - yes. But we don't have trams being attacked by diggers here and you don't need to walk through metal detectors when going into a shopping centre.

@StarryEyeSurprise

The op mentioned Israel in their first post.

I didn't.

Your second post. You did, yes?