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Welcome to Scotsnet - discuss all aspects of life in Scotland, including relocating, schools and local areas.

Tiering up the Covid elimination strategy

999 replies

dancemom · 26/05/2021 20:04

Sadly the end was not as close as we thought so new thread required ....

OP posts:
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24
ResilienceWanker · 08/06/2021 09:05

@Cismyfatarse

I agree about masks in school. They are a way of trying to show compliance and make it look as if something is being done. The reality is kids are silenced by them and I can't teach for long using my voice.

And it is another sign that children are at the bottom of the heap. Football fans are much more important. Nothing about return to 8n person teaching at universities either. But big up the football.

Schools do have limited outbreaks. But they have continued to do so. And using masks when needed is very different from the current blanket requirement in secondary schools of all staff and pupils and in all areas and all schools.

I am totally unable to chat to classes. It is very hard to conduct discussions or teach. And when you can't tell if a child is telling you something clever about "Macbeth" or they want the loo, you are not teaching effectively.

I agree with this, and really sympathize with the difficulty you have teaching with mask wearing. I have mild hearing loss which affects certain sounds in the range of speech (generally high frequency sounds like f, H, S) ... Absolutely fine most of the time when I have other cues of context, and being able to see the speaker's mouth, only occasionally needing to ask for the speaker to repeat if they are very quiet or quick, or muffled somehow. With masks, a bit of a shit show. It's a perfectly easy thing to solve and I have no need for it to be "checked out" further... probably at some point I'll need hearing aids if it gets substantially worse, but not at the moment, and the audiologist I saw pointed out that quality of life isn't automatically improved if you do get aids, which have their own issues. So add into that the tendency for teens to want to play on any "weakness" of a teacher, I can imagine it's pretty bad for a lot of people like me. Not to mention any students who are in a similar situation.

Although it's not possible to say whether the situation would be worse without masks in our particular situation in Scotland, there is another country just to the south of us that hasn't had masks in schools for a month or so now. And doesn't seem to be having uncontrolled outbreaks in schools as a result. Of course there are increases of cases across the country, including in teens, but looking at the two sets of graphs (Scotland the left, England the right) , it doesn't seem that masked classes in Scotland are faring better than unmasked classes in England. In fact, it looks like the opposite (though obviously Scotland's community transmission is higher at the moment, so can't directly compare).

Even if there is a slight protective effect, surely we are at the stage where we have to question at what stage any benefit is outweighed by the discomfort and disruption to teaching and learning? Do we need more people with one jag, two jags, children vaccinated, hospital admissions in single figures, no requirement for contacts to isolate (which seems to be the main reason we need to keep cases down in schools at the moment, rather than children and teachers being badly affected themselves)?? What will be enough to drop the need for masks?

Tiering up the Covid elimination strategy
Tiering up the Covid elimination strategy
Y0uCann0tBeSer10us · 08/06/2021 09:12

I'm another one who isn't a teacher but struggles to hear and be heard with masks on, and there is nothing wrong with my hearing either. Ironically this forces you to lean in closer than you would otherwise have done in some cases. In a learning context though I'd be more worried about the 'loss' of facial expressions from students as these non-verbal clues give you so much information. You can tell at a glance if someone is upset, or struggling to understand, from their facial expression, but this is obviously much harder to read if their face is covered! The student then has to work much harder to ask a question, and the more shy ones may not feel comfortable doing that. I also sympathise with students trying to work with face masks on - I certainly find it makes day to day tasks harder and I can easily believe that it significantly impairs concentration.

Y0uCann0tBeSer10us · 08/06/2021 09:22

Has anyone seen this story this morning? Essentially, soft play owners are talking of legal action against the SG for unfair treatment. They claim that despite being in discussions with the SG for 9 months, the SG has yet to produce a single document explaining why soft play is so 'unsafe', and point out that they are open in the rest of the UK and appear to be safe there.

Scottishskifun · 08/06/2021 09:30

@Cismyfatarse yep agree it's to be seen to be doing something rather than actually preventing.

A mask doesn't stop you catching covid or even spreading it unless a FFP2 if it's in a poorly ventilated environment especially with the new variants which need less small particulate build up which easily escapes the standard mask.
I also highly doubt any teenager is following correct mask procedures of multiple separate changes a day, hand sanitising before and after, only touching the ear loops etc. If a mask is damp from multiple hours breathe then it also increases the liklihood of any particulate matter on it from being breathed in.

So if they aren't being used properly (which is understandable with teenagers given most adults do the same), aren't being changed frequently enough and aren't the type to actually stop particulate matter properly then it is just for show!

Having proper ventilation system is far more important which SG know except a lot of our schools never had this is the first place!
Ventilation being the key risk factor after close contact in catching covid.

Scottishskifun · 08/06/2021 09:36

@Y0uCann0tBeSer10us

Has anyone seen this story this morning? Essentially, soft play owners are talking of legal action against the SG for unfair treatment. They claim that despite being in discussions with the SG for 9 months, the SG has yet to produce a single document explaining why soft play is so 'unsafe', and point out that they are open in the rest of the UK and appear to be safe there.
I don't blame them!

I don't think they can produce any evidence given children under 12 don't need to socially distance!
SG will be particularly screwed as the latest research shows that the importance of surface transfer is far lower then initially thought which they are well aware of (it's 4th in the ranking position)

Y0uCann0tBeSer10us · 08/06/2021 09:51

@Scottishskifun agree, there probably isn't any evidence to produce which is likely why they haven't! It puts them in an awkward position though, because if one sector challenges their (apparently completely arbitrary) decisions it opens the door for many others too also. Nightclubs might quite legitimately point to the trial events down south as evidence that they can be opened safely too rather than waiting for the completely hypothetical and as yet totally undefined 'beyond level zero' which seems an awfully long way off.

Perhaps we'll finally get to a point where the SG can't just declare something 'unsafe' in a vague hand-wavy way without strong evidence to actually support those claims.

ResilienceWanker · 08/06/2021 09:53

Absolutely! Soft play owners have been treated really poorly, when compared to (eg) gyms, hospitality, indoor children's sports and so on, all of which are permitted, albeit at reduced capacity and with measures in place, but which have similar risks on proximity, ventilation, shared equipment etc as far as I can see. And there have hardly been huge soft play outbreaks reported down south...

That's interesting about surface transfer being so low on the list. Wonder if the constant sanitising can take a back seat soon...?

Scottishskifun · 08/06/2021 10:02

@ResilienceWanker yep it still plays a bit of a roll but nowhere near what they thought it did especially with new variants which have a greater stress on air/ventilation (not really a suprise for a respiratory transmitted illness tbh!)

SG is well aware of the development with it! DH does covid response so gets regular updates from public health, virologist sessions etc

randomsabreuse · 08/06/2021 10:03

I'm torn on softplay as well before Covid my DC came down with stuff 24-48h both times after visiting a particular soft play where we used to live. So if they are lazy about cleaning (and many were) it's a good way to spread germs.

Especially in a ball pit!!!

I also guess that restricted numbers wouldn't help profitability either.

Plus we've suddenly got a lot more cases in our previously unaffected primary school so now probably isn't ideal to add more risk to that age group!

That said they're open in England (I think) and I've not heard of outbreaks being linked to them!

I'm also quite cross that my sport is still not allowed indoors for me (as an adult) while in England as an organised sport they're allowed to restart competitions which I can't do because I can't train because the outdoor stuff that there is is too early (and far away) to fit around DH's work!

Scottishskifun · 08/06/2021 10:10

@randomsabreuse ball pits are gone under the guidance.
The ones we have attended in England have all been set up brilliantly with regular cleaning between sessions.

I think it's personal choice fully accept many won't feel comfortable with it personally I'm checking our local one for regular updates with when they are reopening 😂 (I'm not in the central belt)

randomsabreuse · 08/06/2021 10:37

@Scottishskifun hopefully they'll lose their germ pit reputation!!

I like them while we're there, just had a couple of trips to A&E as a result as older DC was incapable of stopping vomiting without anti-emetics (might still be as no bugs since March last year) which obviously coloured my opinion!

I can't wait to be able to go and sit with a friend at a table and actually chat while the kids run around! Just suspect it will be some time (Greater Glasgow Health Board area).

ResilienceWanker · 08/06/2021 11:17

[quote Scottishskifun]@ResilienceWanker yep it still plays a bit of a roll but nowhere near what they thought it did especially with new variants which have a greater stress on air/ventilation (not really a suprise for a respiratory transmitted illness tbh!)

SG is well aware of the development with it! DH does covid response so gets regular updates from public health, virologist sessions etc[/quote]
Well, yes... For a disease that enters and leaves largely via the mouth and nose, avoiding or preventing virus particles being near other people's mouth and nose seems logical. So dispersing them through ventilation or fresh air and keeping them away from people's faces in the first place through distancing and face coverings and so on. Coughing on something, and then relying on someone to transfer any virus manually seems a lot less efficient means of transfer than, for example, being coughed on at close range! (Even though it is children we're talking about, I'm assuming licking the blocks is less common than being close in each other's faces, which is totally allowed as they don't need to distance). Presumably virologists initially thought that the tiny droplets didn't have enough virus to be very risky, although they hung around in the air longer than big cough gobbets... but with a more transmissible variant that needs "less virus" to infect you, that effectively makes it more "airborne". And let's not forget the little packages of covid spread by children blowing bubbles Confused

WouldBeGood · 08/06/2021 13:56

Just read an articles that says studies have shown that fomite (touch) transmission accounted for one in ten thousand cases.

Fomite is my newly learned word 😀

ResilienceWanker · 08/06/2021 14:14

Crikey.. That's not very many! How do they even know?! Is this the people who had locked themselves in their house since Jan 2020 and sanitised all their shopping but they still ended up catching it from a rogue boden catalogue that they forgot to use a glove to pick up or something? I'd have thought it (fo)might Grin be slightly more common than that.

WouldBeGood · 08/06/2021 14:20

😂 dunno.. it was from the CDC. I think the problem is, as you say, it’s hard to prove one way or another.

Tbh, I think they just panicked last year and now have a more realistic approach.

dancemom · 08/06/2021 14:31

• 695 new cases of COVID-19 reported
• 14,873 new tests for COVID-19 that reported results
◦ 5.0% of these were positive
• 0 new reported death(s) of people who have tested positive
• 12 people were in intensive care yesterday with recently confirmed COVID-19
• 121 people were in hospital yesterday with recently confirmed COVID-19
• 3,403,866 people have received the first dose of the Covid vaccination and 2,282,203 have received their second dose

OP posts:
dancemom · 08/06/2021 14:32

419,009 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 89,639 1st doses / 244,107 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 17,545 / 30,944
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 1,972 / 21,338
NI 3,785 / 9,679

OP posts:
frasersmummy · 08/06/2021 14:40

I know nothing is changing this week but I've lost count ..when is the next level review ?

Bytheloch · 08/06/2021 14:46

@frasersmummy

I know nothing is changing this week but I've lost count ..when is the next level review ?
Well exactly, it’s all a bit freestyling now isn’t it? Announcements seem to drop in, particularly if they relate to football. I stopped listening a long time ago, but if I had a business in Scotland, particularly in tourism or hospitality, I’d be already asking what the plan for Scotland is from June 21st if England goes ahead with dropping majority of restrictions. Or are we set for a summer of doom here. Brigadoom.
SoMuchForSummerLove · 08/06/2021 14:55

Next review is 28th June. Pretty sure it's always been every three weeks.

ResilienceWanker · 08/06/2021 15:07

Yes, I think they're still going on 3 week cycles, so the next formal review will be in 2 weeks (w/c 21st), probably coming into force the following week. But I agree it's gone a bit "when I say so" now. The initial roadmap had 7th June as its last "date that isn't a date because we're not going by dates" - with us being tier zeroed in "late June". Can't see that happening really, though.

I'd have hoped there would be weekly reviews of the council areas that didn't get put to tier 1 last week, but that didn't seem to happen today, formally from what I picked up (ie cabinet review of each council and the stats associated with it, with a report buried in the bowels of the Covid section on the SG website). Though at least no one was raised up a tier, which would have really felt like a backwards step.

ResilienceWanker · 08/06/2021 15:18

Ah yes. Here we go. Next review 21st June for changes on the 28th.

Cismyfatarse · 08/06/2021 17:50

@forfucksakenett I teach in a large school in a large department of a core subject. I may be a deaf old bag but my young colleagues are all complaining. Drama, in a mask? What about nuance? Facial expressions? Very large classes who, even when not speaking, make some noises shuffling paper.

Seagulls? Ventilation system? All windows wide open? Ambient noise. Door open to busy corridors?

Seriously, if you are teaching full time secondary English and hear every word from every pupil's mouth then you need some sort of prize.

Out here at the chalk face (or whiteboard face?) we have kids who we cannot hear and who often give up, particularly in larger classes.

Learning is impaired. It just is and you are absolutely wrong as teachers in my school are finding it incredibly difficult.

We follow all the rules and have space for 2m in some classrooms. Kids follow the rules and we have had few cases. But masks are a total block on quality learning and pupils deserve better.

I am going to come back as a PE teacher as they can run free and mask less outside.

StarryEyeSurprise · 08/06/2021 18:00

But pupils don't need to wear them when sitting in the classroom do they? I thought it was only when they were moving / communal areas like the corridors

forfucksakenett · 08/06/2021 18:16

Nah they do need to wear them all day. There's a big difference between having to ask kids to repeat the odd thing and it being so bad that you can't teach them anything though.

It's very annoying though and I do get why people moan. I'm just a bit crabbit about the moaning which I get is just as bad as the moaners themselves 🙈

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