How do think Scottish nationality should be defined?

[workwoes123]

How do you think Scottish nationality should be defined? What conditions should people have to meet in order to have Scottish nationality? And what rights should that bring with it? How easy / hard should it be?

My questions are kind of inspired by Italian born Toni Guigliano (SNP candidate) being harassed by the far right and them questioning what rights he should have, whether he’s “Scottish enough”. (I’m assuming that he does have British nationality?)

It’s also related to my own situation. DH and I are «Scottish» through and through. We left Scotland 18 years ago, lived in NZ for 5 years (one child born there), then to France (second child born there). We don’t have any current intention to move back to Scotland but you never know. Our children are totally bilingual / bicultural. Both have British nationality, the older has NZ nationality as well. Although we haven’t lived there for years, we still have property, savings, and all our family ties are to Scotland. Yet we can’t currently vote there (due to the U.K. wide 15 yr limit), and we didn’t get a vote in the last independence referendum.

Here in France, we can’t vote here, we can’t stand for election, we can’t even work in the public administration (except on a contract) unless we are French nationals. It’s a long, tedious and very strict process.
Residence gives us a lot of rights, but not those of a French citizen.

My impression is that Scotland is falling over itself to be welcoming and inclusive and very open to immigration and diversity. Is that going to translate into its immigration policies, should it ever be in a position to set them?

Scotland position on these issues is likely to change after it achieves further autonomy. The current policy is part of a road map in that direction to try and help scotland get into a position where it has enough friends and skilled population to be able to go it alone.

Scotland needs more population. My parents are both Scottish so I hope I will be eligible

I wonder also how nationality would be granted to the existing resident population? Would everyone have to ‘prove’ they are eligible? Would it just be given to anyone who can prove they were born in Scotland? Even if their parents weren’t? DS2 still has to apply for French nationality despite being born there.

I'm not Scottish but I think this is an interesting question.

No country in the EU offers citizenship simply by being born there, I don't think anywhere in Europe does (might be wrong about that), so if Scotland were to base nationality on birthright alone it would probably be the only European country to do so. In most European countries, to be born with citizenship you need a parent with citizenship, or to be born there to people who are permanent residents at least.

@raskolnikova

Technically, as far as I am aware, no one is “Scottish”. It isn’t a legally defined nationality. I don’t have any piece of paper that proves my Scottishness at this point in time, because it doesn’t exist legally.

So if Scottish nationality is to be created (or recreated) who’s going to be granted it and who’s going to have to prove it? And who’s going to be rejected?

You could look at current Scottish policy like who is allowed to vote. It's fairly broad.

Scotland has a low and aging population so it makes sense to encourage people to settle here from elsewhere, I think. But it may change with time. Ireland's policies became less generous recently, didn't they?

I have no idea, I'm just interested to see what's decided!

With the example you gave of the Italian-born SNP candidate, hypothetically speaking, had Scotland been an independent country already, surely he would have been Scottish by naturalisation, not by birth (I don't know his parentage but I'm assuming Italian).

So there are two questions really, who is born Scottish, and how do people naturalise as Scottish?

If Scotland were to give birthright citizenship like the USA, for example, and also aimed to rejoin the EU, would that result in birth tourism from people who want their children to have EU passports?

At the time of the indyref there was a set of criteria for getting Scottish nationality. I'm Scottish, but was born in England as my parents lived down south for a couple of years and my children are England born and raised. Under the rules at that time I qualified as Scottish for either of: my parents were Scottish, I did all my schooling in Scotland. My children qualified because I did. I didn't get to vote in the referendum though - did not qualify for that.

My in-laws are English born and raised, but both went to University in Scotland and lived/worked there since (20 years). They qualify for Scottish nationality too, and did get to vote.

I don't know if those rules are still on tinterweb somewhere, but I found it reassuring that I wouldn't be excluded from home in that event (I will move back one day, just my job does not exist elsewhere, one child already gone there).

I think people get in knots over this because of the confusion between ethnicity and nationality. The terms are used interchangeably at times but have distinct meanings.

Someone's nationality is a legal status, determined by whatever nationality laws a country has. It usually involves some combination of where a person and their parents were born and where they have resided over the preceding years.

Scottish ethnicity I'd personally categorise as anyone who can trace their ancestry back to 19th century Scotland.

I'd quite happily open Scottish citizenship to anyone who is ethnically Scottish due to the awful history of so many being driven out during the clearances.

@felulageller

You are right of course. The legal definition has to be precise, lines drawn, specific dates applied, rules clearly defined. I find it absolutely fascinating, having lived in different countries, to look at how nationality is defined, granted, what rights are attached to it. It’s going to be extremely complicated in Scotland: as a op says in many European countries nationality can be handed down from parent to child - but for that to apply in Scotland we’d first have to define and grant Scottish nationality to the parents - and grandparents etc.

And what about people who are not ethnically Scottish?

Like you OP I have a foreign-born child with some foreign heritage too and that's why I'm fascinated (I'm trying to work out if she's a dual national at the moment actually).

Another thing to consider would be where the chain is broken. My daughter is British by descent, so if she gives birth in the UK, her children will be British, but if she gives birth abroad they won't be (I think that's how it works?)

To me your nationality should be the country of your birth.
None of this “my Granny was Irish, so I’m Irish” pish.
However, I agree with changing your nationality if you become an official citizen of another country.

@FelicityPike

To me your nationality should be the country of your birth. None of this “my Granny was Irish, so I’m Irish” pish. However, I agree with changing your nationality if you become an official citizen of another country.

This sounds like you don't understand how citizenship works internationally. I was born in the USA, while my (UK) parents were there on my dad's two-year contract. I have US and UK (full British) citizenship because the US has pure birthright citizenship/full jus solis while the UK generally follows jus sanguinis. If you imagine the opposite of me - a child of two US citizens born in the UK when neither parent had PR - it's different. That's because different countries have different laws. Really not surprising or shocking. And by the way, if your grandmother was born in Ireland, you DO have Irish citizenship, and Ireland rightly doesn't care what anyone else thinks about it.

Scotland has a falling, increasingly elderly population. It needs to be inclusive and welcoming (which I have found most Scots to be, naturally: Scottish grandparents)

This is just my guess. As a previous poster has said there is currently no legal definition of Scottish nationality. So you would, I am supposing become a national at the point of independence; if that happens. At that point it would apply to anyone residing in Scotland? I am interested to hear comments as I am English, my home is in Scotland (moved here permanently seven months ago) and have just voted SNP I appreciate that as a 'settler' I may not fit the definition of Scottish.

It will probably fall in line with the Irish model. If you are in Scotland at the time of independence and reside there you can claim Scottish nationality if you wish. If you are born there or have a parent born there and don't reside there you can claim Scottish nationality. People will be able to have dual nationality - ie British and Scottish etc. They may go back as far as a grandparent born there.

“If you are in Scotland at the time of independence and reside there you can claim Scottish nationality if you wish”

That’s quite a generous offer: we’ve been in France for 14 years and can’t “claim” nationality: we can only apply for it if we meet certain conditions and provide a ton of paperwork to prove this. DS2 was born here - he can apply age 13 in his own right.

It's an interesting question. I don't consider myself Scottish, though I have lived here more than half my adult life. If forced, I could probably claim Scottish citizenship on those grounds, or possibly through DS who was born here! Would I have to sit a test on "life in Scotland" like applicants for UK citizenship do, I wonder?! I'd prefer to continue to identify myself as "British" which I think should give me the same rights in an independent Scotland as someone identifying as Scottish, but who knows? It seems a bit harsh to strip people of their preferred national identity, and citizenship by birth, in my opinion, but it's not going to be up to me, frankly...

I think citizenship would be relatively easy to claim (through several routes - birth, parental or other heritage, settlement and so on) for those who did want it. I suppose they could go down the US route and "claim" people as citizens (eg based on parental citizenship, regardless of where you were born) or let people apply, and then insist that tax is paid to Scotland, regardless of where those citizens live or where the income is earned . So all the rich Americans who insist they have Scottish ancestry can become citizens, but then have to pay tax to Scotland (with no voting rights unless you have lived there within a certain time period, of course). Or anyone who left Scotland fearing the fallout from independence would also potentially have to pay tax to the government they left to avoid. That would be fun... and may help raise a bit of money to offset the costs of independence I suppose!

Presumably there will be a citizenship application that can be made as well for those moving to Scotland without family ties.
I absolutely agree that only those living in the country at the time of a referendum should be able to vote in it. I'm from NI originally as much as I have wanted a UI all my life, and all my family are there, I won't get a vote in any referendum on the issue and neither should I.

I think a new state can probably afford to be generous with its citizenships in a way an established one can't. They need to make it as uncomplicated as possible. There will be Unionists who don't wish to be passport carrying members of the new state, but I suspect citizenship will be automatically conferred on everyone resident at the start to make things easier. Whether people choose to continue with their dual nationality and see themselves as British is a different question. That's why there are so many parallels with Ireland.

I am a European national, naturalised in UK and therefore I have dual nationality and I carry two passports. I have been living in Scotland for almost 20 years (it is the only place in UK where I have ever resided, DH is Scottish, my children are Scottish ). I see myself as an adopted Scot, and Scotland as my adoptive country. If Scotland becomes independent, I hope I will be allowed to get Scottish citizenship.

An independent Scotland would need as many economically viable taxpayers as possible. The more able to work and contribute to the Scottish economy will being in revenue. The idea similar to the Uk/india cross flow could be adapted to include countries with a high ex pat/ descendant of expat community.

If a party dedicated to economic success for an independent Scotland can do this and remove the idiots who do it no favours then I wish it luck.

Interesting point.

As Scotland needs people, I would expect politicans will go the Irish route - 2 generations of citizenship descent, up to grandparents. They will also likely adopt a targeted immigration policy, probably involving skilled immigration and also leaning heavily on student visas which can become work visas which can become settlement.

I think people get in knots over this because of the confusion between ethnicity and nationality. The terms are used interchangeably at times but have distinct meanings.

Which is why I describe myself - born in England to English parents and 30 years living in Scotland - as 'Scottish' but I would never describe myself as a 'Scot'.

Scotland is lucky in that it has these two distinctly different words to differentiate between ethnicity (Scot) and nationality (Scottish). Ethnically I'm English. Nationally I'm Scottish.

An English person living (and identifying as English) living in England would have to use the same word, 'English', for both. Ditto Wales - 'Welsh' has to serve both purposes. (Though there may be a difference in Welsh (the language) that I don't know about.)