How do think Scottish nationality should be defined?

[workwoes123]

How do you think Scottish nationality should be defined? What conditions should people have to meet in order to have Scottish nationality? And what rights should that bring with it? How easy / hard should it be?

My questions are kind of inspired by Italian born Toni Guigliano (SNP candidate) being harassed by the far right and them questioning what rights he should have, whether he’s “Scottish enough”. (I’m assuming that he does have British nationality?)

It’s also related to my own situation. DH and I are «Scottish» through and through. We left Scotland 18 years ago, lived in NZ for 5 years (one child born there), then to France (second child born there). We don’t have any current intention to move back to Scotland but you never know. Our children are totally bilingual / bicultural. Both have British nationality, the older has NZ nationality as well. Although we haven’t lived there for years, we still have property, savings, and all our family ties are to Scotland. Yet we can’t currently vote there (due to the U.K. wide 15 yr limit), and we didn’t get a vote in the last independence referendum.

Here in France, we can’t vote here, we can’t stand for election, we can’t even work in the public administration (except on a contract) unless we are French nationals. It’s a long, tedious and very strict process.
Residence gives us a lot of rights, but not those of a French citizen.

My impression is that Scotland is falling over itself to be welcoming and inclusive and very open to immigration and diversity. Is that going to translate into its immigration policies, should it ever be in a position to set them?

@FourSeasonsTotalLandscaping as a person with two Scottish parents who lived in Scotland from the ages of 8-22 am I not a person of Scotland?
If so, what nation am I ‘of’?
I agree with @workwoes123, regardless of the semantics sturgeon’s definition will match the one that gives her the greatest chance of securing independence.
It might sound melodramatic but it hurts my heart to think that if Scotland becomes an independent country I will be stateless. I am not English but not considered Scottish enough to have a vote in any Indy ref.
I think that any British citizen of Scottish descent living and working in the UK (and paying UK taxes) should have a vote.
I have family living in the US who all got a brexit vote after all...

If you are not going to have to live with the day to day consequences of the independence vote then you shouldn’t get a vote, no matter which way you would choose to vote.

If I'm being made stateless then doesn't that count as a day to day consequence?

You wouldn't be stateless unless the UK withdrew your British Nationality.

In answer to the Op question I agree the Irish approach is the most likely due to precedent and needing to grow population. However the thing which concerns me more is the tacit assumption that the UK will indefinitely continue the CTA solution.

I also don't think a generous immigration policy in any way solves the demographic issue. The risk is that pensioners retire "back home" while the economically active arrive in Scotland before seeking their fortune elsewhere. Economic performance drives population not the other way round.

@heidiwine you put it so well. All my formative years, from birth to early 20s were in Scotland. The connection is centuries old, but Scots like me have no say.

[[Citizenship[edit]
The Scottish government proposed that all British citizens who had been born in Scotland would automatically become Scottish citizens on the date of independence, regardless of whether or not they were then living in Scotland. British citizens "habitually resident" in Scotland would also be considered Scottish citizens, even if they already held the citizenship of another country. Every person who would automatically be considered a Scottish citizen would be able to opt-out of Scottish citizenship provided they already held the citizenship of another country.[88] The Scottish government also proposed that anyone with a Scottish parent or grandparent would be able to apply for registration as a Scottish citizen, and any foreign national living in Scotland legally, or who had lived in Scotland for at least 10 years at any time and had an ongoing connection to Scotland, should be able to apply for naturalisation as a Scottish citizen.[88] UK Home Secretary Theresa May said the future policies of an independent Scottish government would affect whether Scottish citizens would be allowed to retain British citizenship.[89] An analysis paper published by the UK government in January 2014 stated that it was likely that Scots would be able to hold dual citizenship;[90] however, the duality was considered for all other countries, not specifically to the rest of the UK. The possibility of holding dual UK–Scotland citizenships could be subject to the "proof of affinity".[91] Scottish citizenship]]

Taken from Wikipedia - citizenship rules after the Scottish referundum.

Its never going to happen If it was it would have happened at the last referendum.

[quote Seymour5]@heidiwine you put it so well. All my formative years, from birth to early 20s were in Scotland. The connection is centuries old, but Scots like me have no say.[/quote]
Oh the drama. If you care so much about Scotland live there.

It might sound melodramatic but it hurts my heart to think that if Scotland becomes an independent country I will be stateless. I am not English but not considered Scottish enough to have a vote in any Indy ref

Again - what a silly comment. You will not be stateless. If you care so deeply, then live here and don't peddle your misty- eyed romanticism.

I think that any British citizen of Scottish descent living and working in the UK (and paying UK taxes) should have a vote.

How much 'descent'? Would Scottish parents entitle you to a vote even if you had never lived in Scotland? Or Scottish Grandparents? Or Great Grandparents? How about only one Scottish Great-Great-Great grandfather who died before their child was born and never had any input into the child's rearing? Who's going to administer this exercise in racial profiling? And pay for it? It would cost a fortune to draw up such a list with its attendant appeals procedures and legal challenges.

Why don't I get a vote in the London mayoral elections? Because I don't live there. If we followed the any British citizen of Scottish descent living and working in the UK (and paying UK taxes) should have a vote line and substituted 'English' for 'Scottish' I would (being of English descent) entitled to vote in any English elections I feel like. Which is obviously too silly to contemplate.

If you want a vote in this, move to Scotland.

I think the comments above from @TheSandman and @MissBarbary demonstrate how divisive the independence debate is.
I am not a unionist but I abhor the politics of division.
I absolutely understand why some Scottish people want independence. I also understand why some don’t.
If there is a referendum in the near future one thing is certain, roughly 1 in 2 people will not get the result they want and somewhere at some point there will have to be some kind of understanding between both groups.

I think that the misty eyed romanticism as quoted by @MissBarbary is partly driving the quest for independence.

How is is divisive to say the people who live in Scotland have the right to vote about things that directly effect them and that people who DON'T live in Scotland should keep their nebs out?

The route to Independence is not going to be easy; difficult questions will have to be asked (and answered). But throwing people just their hands up and crying "it's divisive" is just avoiding the issues, wishing they would go away and isn't going to get us anywhere.

I don't think anyone of Scottish descent should have a say but I do think those of us who were born, grew up and educated in Scotland and had to move south of the border due to the paucity of professional jobs that are not public sector in Scotland should have a say in our country being ripped apart. DH and I both grew up in Scotland. The majority of our siblings live in England and can't find jobs in Scotland, DH and I live as far north as we can, our brothers are both in London. I know BIL has repeatedly looked for jobs in Scotland but there's no jobs at his level, my work is full of Scots who have had to come south for work but would rather be back if only there was work. The SNP should be trying to encourage us back (these are highly educated and skilled people) but I know no-one who has returned north once they move south.

I don't think anyone of Scottish descent should have a say but I do think those of us who were born, grew up and educated in Scotland and had to move south of the border due to the paucity of professional jobs that are not public sector in Scotland should have a say in our country being ripped apart.

Clarification please, which country are you referring to?

Clarification please, which country are you referring to?

It's very clear from what I've already written . I am Scottish (born and bred, and educated) who moved to England for work, as did DH and the majority of our siblings. In some countries I would have a vote and you, as an English 'foreign national', wouldn't.

The SNP is going to keep pushing this until they get the result they want, but no doubt they will say 'the people have spoken' when there's a push for a referendum to rejoin the union. There needs to be a clear majority of the Scottish people voting for independence before it happens but the SNP will manipulate the vote to get the result they want and it will cost a fortune and split the country again just like Brexit and the last Indy Ref.

“ should have a say in our country being ripped apart.”

Possibly @TheSandman is referring to the UK being ripped apart, rather than Scotsman, or do you mean Scotland will be ripped apart due to the decisive nature of the vote?

On the basis that you said that most of your siblings can’t find jobs in Scotland, will Scotland have a strong enough economy to fund itself?

It's very clear from what I've already written

Sorry but it was not clear (to me) from what you had written otherwise I wouldn't feel the need to ask.

The country you see being 'Ripped Apart'. Do you mean Scotland, or the UK?

@JaninaDuszejko

I don't think anyone of Scottish descent should have a say but I do think those of us who were born, grew up and educated in Scotland and had to move south of the border due to the paucity of professional jobs that are not public sector in Scotland should have a say in our country being ripped apart. DH and I both grew up in Scotland. The majority of our siblings live in England and can't find jobs in Scotland, DH and I live as far north as we can, our brothers are both in London. I know BIL has repeatedly looked for jobs in Scotland but there's no jobs at his level, my work is full of Scots who have had to come south for work but would rather be back if only there was work. The SNP should be trying to encourage us back (these are highly educated and skilled people) but I know no-one who has returned north once they move south.

What sector is this that you can't find jobs?

I'm a Scottish national born in Scotland and have always lived here.
I have no issues with ppl moving to Scotland, the majority is very welcome to new ppl.

What I think is hilarious is a certain county that celebrate their Scottish/Irish heritage from 8 generations back. When all they know is stereotypes. They couldn't tell you a thing about Scotland . Yet I saw 1 man write saying He is as Scottish as anybody born and living in Scotland. um no you're not, and if you loved Scotland so much ,why don't you want to live here?

and if you loved Scotland so much ,why don't you want to live here?

It’s quite easy to love somewhere, and not necessarily want to live there. I quite like sunshine, and wine, and my children growing up bilingual. I love my mum to bits, doesn’t mean I want to live next door to her :-) .

Posted too soon...

Do you think that every migrant in the world only loves the country they happen to be living in? People make decisions for all kinds of reasons, often because they believe it’s better for their family / children than staying where they were. It doesn’t mean they don’t love where they came from, warts and all.

Ironically, my oldest loves Scotland more than anywhere, certainly more than France - and he only lived there for 3 months when he was less than a year old! Probably because we are always on holiday there, and he has grandparents doting on him. He fills our hold luggage with irn-bru to sell to his French friends at hugely inflated prices, and tells them that Edinburgh is the best city in the world :-)).

I’m English - was born in England of English parents - but I’ve lived and worked in Scotland for the last 45 years. Both my DC were born in Scotland. We all regard ourselves as British citizens, living in (the northern part of) Britain.
If (God forbid) independence ever happened, my children and I would overnight become expat foreign immigrants in our own homes!
There is no way any of us would accept citizenship of the breakaway new banana republic.
And there are half a million English people like me, currently living in Scotland.
Can you not see what a recipe for division and unrest this whole nonsense of tearing the UK apart actually is? Do you want to end up like Northern Ireland - split between two warring tribes?
Why are you so keen to sacrifice your standard of living, financial support, defence and security, for some silly Braveheart notion of independence?
You are not some enslaved colony, you are a full member of the world’s fifth largest economy and receive preferential treatment within it - subsidised public spending in Scotland is higher per head than in England, thanks to the Barnett formula. Ingratitude, much?

A full member yet you refer to us as northern Britain? @Babdoc

There are half a million English people in Scotland but to say half a million like you is not accurate. Some of those English folk would welcome independence.

If it happens, I sincerely hope that I would be permitted citizenship as I am very proud of my Scottish heritage (traceable to 1750) and don't want to be cut off from that just because my Dad had to move to England for a job after uni. I was born and brought up overseas and moved to England aged 16. I sound English but would always correct anyone who assumes I am by saying I am British (Mum is half English). Whatever happens, it won't be simple.

@Babdoc I'm the mirror image of you. Born in Scotland to Scottish parents, lived and worked in England since I was in my 20s. DH is English, but moved to Scotland as a child, his English siblings, and their children are still there.

There are thousands of British families like us on both sides of the border.