How do think Scottish nationality should be defined?

[workwoes123]

How do you think Scottish nationality should be defined? What conditions should people have to meet in order to have Scottish nationality? And what rights should that bring with it? How easy / hard should it be?

My questions are kind of inspired by Italian born Toni Guigliano (SNP candidate) being harassed by the far right and them questioning what rights he should have, whether he’s “Scottish enough”. (I’m assuming that he does have British nationality?)

It’s also related to my own situation. DH and I are «Scottish» through and through. We left Scotland 18 years ago, lived in NZ for 5 years (one child born there), then to France (second child born there). We don’t have any current intention to move back to Scotland but you never know. Our children are totally bilingual / bicultural. Both have British nationality, the older has NZ nationality as well. Although we haven’t lived there for years, we still have property, savings, and all our family ties are to Scotland. Yet we can’t currently vote there (due to the U.K. wide 15 yr limit), and we didn’t get a vote in the last independence referendum.

Here in France, we can’t vote here, we can’t stand for election, we can’t even work in the public administration (except on a contract) unless we are French nationals. It’s a long, tedious and very strict process.
Residence gives us a lot of rights, but not those of a French citizen.

My impression is that Scotland is falling over itself to be welcoming and inclusive and very open to immigration and diversity. Is that going to translate into its immigration policies, should it ever be in a position to set them?

My parents were both born and brought up in Scotland but by the time I was due to be born were living in England. They drove to Scotland for my birth and that of my brother so that, come "home rule" we would be deemed Scottish. It's been a long investment for them, over 50 years so far, and by the time it happens, if ever, they may both be dead.

@Athrawes

My parents were both born and brought up in Scotland but by the time I was due to be born were living in England. They drove to Scotland for my birth and that of my brother so that, come "home rule" we would be deemed Scottish. It's been a long investment for them, over 50 years so far, and by the time it happens, if ever, they may both be dead.

DH's parents did exactly the same for him and his siblings

I have a friend whose parents did this!

I would never call myself Scottish as I see it as pretty much synonymous with being a Scot. I say I live in Scotland, I have some Scottish heritage.

“If you are in Scotland at the time of independence and reside there you can claim Scottish nationality if you wish”

That’s quite a generous offer

I don't think it's a generous offer at all, I think it's a minimum residents should expect. Imagine your a British citizen living in Scotland (born anywhere), you are a full citizen in the country you live in with all the rights and responsibilities that gives you. Scotland becomes independent, if you are not given automatic citizenship, you are then legally a foreigner in your own country and a citizen of a different state.

It could get complicated. If you were a pensioner living in Scotland, reluctant to move but concerned at the ability of an independent Scotland to maintain the current level of pension benefit, could you declare yourself an expat Brit and maintain your UK pension?

I can trace my maternal ancestry back to the 18th century, all born and bred in Scotland. My paternal ancestry is mainly Scottish, but there's an odd English and Irish ancestor in the mix. My parents were born in Scotland, as I was. I left as a young woman, and have spent 2/3 of my life in England.

I am ethnically Scottish, and I still sound Scottish. @TheSandman, you surprise me by saying you are Scottish. I could never describe myself as English, because I'm patently not. I'm an ethnic Scot, and a British national.

If Scotland really are promising citizenship to every resident if they achieve independence, won't that encourage thousands of unprocessed asylum claimants, overstayers, and other immigrants without settled status to head north? No expensive and lengthy process? Just be there? Or have I got that wrong?

Surely it would be every LEGAL resident and current UK citizen? Otherwise as said, without offering authentic citizenship to these people, you are turning them into foreigners in their homeland.

Automatic not authentic!

I am ethnically Scottish, and I still sound Scottish. @TheSandman, you surprise me by saying you are Scottish. I could never describe myself as English, because I'm patently not. I'm an ethnic Scot, and a British national.

Why do you find it surprising I say I'm Scottish? I have lived in Scotland over half my 60+ years, I work in Scotland, I pay taxes in Scotland, I have three kids born in Scotland, and I plan on dying and being buried here. This is my home. I have a love for this place I never felt for anywhere I lived in England. And I have no interest in moving back to, living in, or even visiting England ever again in my life if I can help it. I would never call myself a Scot because I'm not. I am Scottish. 'New Scottish' if you will, but defiantly Scottish by every criterion I can think of other than the fact I was born in England.

I was born in Scotland. My mother was born in Scotland and my father was born in France. My nationality is British. I'm quite happy with it and I don't want my British nationally taken from me to have "Scottish" foisted on to me.

I'm an ethnic Scot

What does that mean? What's an "ethnic Scot"?

Sorry @TheSandman, the Scots / Scottish distinction is not one I recognise either. I'd never describe myself as 'a Scot', though I guess I would use 'the Scots' as a shorthand for 'the Scottish people', but I'd be referring to one and the same group of people.

When Nicola Sturgeon refers to 'the Scottish people' who does she mean? Anyone - irrespective of where they came from, where they were born, where their parents were born - who's currently living and paying taxes in Scotland? What about people like me - Scottish by any definition, but not currently living there? Am I still one of 'the Scottish people'?

The cynic in me says that she'd define 'the Scottish people ' to match whichever the polls told her would give the best chance of a Yes vote (hence excluding Scots living overseas from the last Indyref), not sure if that necessarily translates into a naturalisation policy.

The only country I can think of that recently had a separation not as a result of decolonialisation or a war is Czeckoslovakia becoming Slovakia and the Czeck republic. What happened there?

I’m English but moved to Scotland as a young teen, spent years there before moving back to England and still consider Scotland my “home”, as my family still live there and I want to go back eventually. If/when independence happens I guess I would apply for whatever citizenship is created.

My younger brother was 2 when we moved, and doesn’t even remember living in England, though he was born there. He still calls himself English though, but I think he feels not-quite English and not-quite Scottish.

Christ, if I can define my own gender I can define my own nationality within the U.K. surely.
My brother is Scottish, I am English! We were born to the same parents less than a year apart, we both live in England.

My husband and I are Scottish but liber

I absolutely agree that only those living in the country at the time of a referendum should be able to vote in it.

I am Scottish, my family have been Scottish forever (Dad's family can trace the family back to the 15th century and where I grew up has places named after my family), I was born there and educated there, but I now live about an hour across the border. Should I not get a say in the splitting up of my country?

If you are not going to have to live with the day to day consequences of the independence vote then you shouldn’t get a vote, no matter which way you would choose to vote.

I’m glad I’m not the only one wrestling with this.
I was born overseas to Scottish born parents. I lived in Scotland from 8-22.
I live in England now.
I am categorically NOT english.
I am a British Scot.
Of course I should get a vote in any referendum because the result of independence would have an impact on me.
Would I be granted Scottish citizenship based on my parents?
Would I have to pay for English residency, assuming I’d be eligible because of how long I’ve lived here?
Could I use the NHS in England without paying a fee? What about and Scottish healthcare system?
What would happen to my state pension?

I am not for independence but not because I’m a unionist. I just don’t think that further divisions and fragments will being about the sort of society I want to be a part of.

Whatever happens in any near-future Indy ref is that roughly 1 in 2 people will be dissatisfied with the result and the country independent or still part of the union will be further divided. I’d like to see a new type of politician that majors on bringing groups of people together under the premise that we all have a whole lot more in common that we first think.

Great post @heidiwine
It sums it up perfectly for me.

How I long for a politician- at government level- that unites people, but sadly think we’ve got a long, long wait for that

@Temp023

That’s an interesting way to look at it. Is nationality like gender (you can choose whatever you want to identify as) or like biological sex (fixed, «in the blood», something that just ‘is’)?

I’m applying for French nationality because without it life in France will be difficult for us and for our children. But it’s the legal status that we want, DH ad anyway. We will never be «French» French.

Brexit has changed things for us - and as @heidiwine says,our lives are still intricately connected to Scotland and what happens there. We own and will likely inherit property there, we have pensions there, all our family are there.

If we are comparing it to gender - I 'pass' as Scottish as I have been here since childhood and have the accent and all the cultural references you would expext after 40 years. People are surprised to learn that I was born in England to English parents. I would say I have more of a claim on Scottishness than my nephew who was born here but moved abroad when a baby. He doesn't know much about Scotland nor does he really care so the thought of him being allowed to vote in referendum on that basis seem absurd.

@workwoes123

Sorry *@TheSandman*, the Scots / Scottish distinction is not one I recognise either. I'd never describe myself as 'a Scot', though I guess I would use 'the Scots' as a shorthand for 'the Scottish people', but I'd be referring to one and the same group of people.

When Nicola Sturgeon refers to 'the Scottish people' who does she mean? Anyone - irrespective of where they came from, where they were born, where their parents were born - who's currently living and paying taxes in Scotland? What about people like me - Scottish by any definition, but not currently living there? Am I still one of 'the Scottish people'?

The cynic in me says that she'd define 'the Scottish people ' to match whichever the polls told her would give the best chance of a Yes vote (hence excluding Scots living overseas from the last Indyref), not sure if that necessarily translates into a naturalisation policy.

Generally the Scottish Government talk about "the people of Scotland" rather than "the Scottish people" to avoid this issue. People of Scotland generally covers everyone who lives here without getting into the thorny question of what it means to be Scottish!