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Welcome to Scotsnet - discuss all aspects of life in Scotland, including relocating, schools and local areas.

Salmond v Sturgeon Round 3 — Comment along with Sturgeon

999 replies

PolkadotsAndMoonbeams · 03/03/2021 13:16

Previous thread here.

OP posts:
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11
WouldBeGood · 04/03/2021 11:53

Please could we just discuss the actual issues and stop all the other stuff?

It’s interesting enough itself. And ever changing. I wonder what will happen now? And how it will influence SG policy in the run up to the election.

TheShadowyFeminist · 04/03/2021 11:54

"I have no idea why she would even say that, as far as I recall she wasn't asked that and it didn't constructively add anything to her defence."

I think she chose to comment on details she knew cannot be challenged or corroborated as the details are never going to be made available to the committee so they'll never be able to offer any legitimate argument on what she's said. Elsewhere, it's being claimed she knows them all. But while court orders prevent the identities being confirmed, none of us randoms on the internet can comment 🤨

TheShadowyFeminist · 04/03/2021 11:55

"Please could we just discuss the actual issues and stop all the other stuff?"

I'd recommend talking around the wilful derailments. Grey rock 🪨

StatisticallyChallenged · 04/03/2021 11:57

@WouldBeGood

Please could we just discuss the actual issues and stop all the other stuff?

It’s interesting enough itself. And ever changing. I wonder what will happen now? And how it will influence SG policy in the run up to the election.

I'm trying!
happygolurkey · 04/03/2021 11:57

You cannot reasonably compare the confidentiality expectations of a bunch of randoms on a chat board

I'm not - just think it's hypocritical of people - although, disclosing their identity is an offence whether on a chat board or not. someone just went to jail for tweeting one of their names

LexMitior · 04/03/2021 11:58

I expect that AS will continue - she looked wobbly yesterday.

He will get a headline himself from his new evidence - and it will not make her look good. He’s a very smart politician.

LexMitior · 04/03/2021 11:59

@TheShadowyFeminist

"Please could we just discuss the actual issues and stop all the other stuff?"

I'd recommend talking around the wilful derailments. Grey rock 🪨

Yes grey rock!
WouldBeGood · 04/03/2021 11:59

Yes good point.

I’m getting my head round it all more now. It’s much murkier than you’d get from either the AS evidence or NS evidence alone or together. They’d have been well advised to sort this out before it all became public knowledge. The bad feeling, I mean, not any legitimate criminal allegations, which should of course have been dealt with appropriate

LexMitior · 04/03/2021 12:02

@WouldBeGood - I agree with that. NS seems to have made it harder for herself.

Perhaps not well advised

happygolurkey · 04/03/2021 12:04

Please could we just discuss the actual issues and stop all the other stuff?
what are the 'actual issues' wouldn't it be good'? everything i've posted has been a direct response to what others have raised

happygolurkey · 04/03/2021 12:06

Yes grey rock!

always a good tactic when you can't actually face any disagreement/argue your case

IsurviveonCoffeeandWinein2021 · 04/03/2021 12:08

I have a question about yesterday. I think I have my head around most of it but this bit is bugging me. I think it was Mitchell that questioned NS on why she didn't go down the route of arbitration when that's what the complainers and AS wanted. Now I understand what NS said that she didn't want to use her position to do this but surely legally if it was an option she wouldn't have been doing anything wrong?

I don't agree or disagree really but that point has stuck to where AS conspiracy theory idea might be coming from

WaxOnFeckOff · 04/03/2021 12:11

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Salmond v Sturgeon Round 3 — Comment along with Sturgeon
LexMitior · 04/03/2021 12:17

@IsurviveonCoffeeandWinein2021 - interesting one because arbitration is legally binding.

You would never consider it in a case where there was sexual assault or rape. It would be totally, totally inappropriate

WaxOnFeckOff · 04/03/2021 12:19

@IsurviveonCoffeeandWinein2021

I have a question about yesterday. I think I have my head around most of it but this bit is bugging me. I think it was Mitchell that questioned NS on why she didn't go down the route of arbitration when that's what the complainers and AS wanted. Now I understand what NS said that she didn't want to use her position to do this but surely legally if it was an option she wouldn't have been doing anything wrong?

I don't agree or disagree really but that point has stuck to where AS conspiracy theory idea might be coming from

I think there were other routes available but I suppose it depends on whether the staff were civil servants or party staff?

As AS was still a member of the party, if it was party staff, surely they have a policy?

I suppose the difficulty if they were civil servants was that he was (or maybe never was?) a current employee?

So I guess some sort of private route was possible? I don't know what the policy at the time of the "offenses" was and he was not treated under that policy but rather the new one that they'd hurriedly constructed either coincidentally or in response to rumours depending on which side you believe.

The women could have been told, "sorry that happened but he isn't in post anymore and you need to pursue externally but happy to offer counselling"? Which would be the response I would get if I complained about a boss I used to have but no longer worked in the company. I may be able to prove negligence against my company if I found out they knew he was a bit "handsy" and hadn't dealt with that or ensured my safety.

Dinnafashyersel · 04/03/2021 12:21

Isurvive from what I watched her argument was that she shouldn't know anything about the complaints or the process. Therefore she couldn't intervene.

Of course the fact that she did know and did nothing to mitigate knowing is her tacit admission that she broke the Ministerial Code. Her Defence is that she was between a rock and a hard place in terms of balancing this conflict.

Discussed with DH yesterday. We both reckon if you end up knowing something you shouldn't know the correct course of action is to inform the people who should know and then recuse yourself not don your "hear no evil fingers in the ears" blindfold. The more senior you are the more this would be the expectation ime.

IsurviveonCoffeeandWinein2021 · 04/03/2021 12:21

Ok thanks @LexMitior and @WaxOnFeckOff I get what you mean with it being a sexual case it was inappropriate so why did she labour that point? Is it the fact that ScotGov brought in the former minister stuff?

Truelymadlydeeplysomeonesmum · 04/03/2021 12:23

So one thing I don't get. Seen as she is hiding behind MeToo and seeing that the right thing is done for women etc

Is why did she go on to meet his 5 times. Apparently according to her in a previous statement/interview whatever to offer an old friend/ mentor support.

Surely her views/opinions/support would be on one side or the other. Even if claiming to be neutral that behaviour doesn't match and her comments don't match.

She also knows full well that he couldn't issue an apology without it sounding like a confession. So that was just playing games. I can't believe people fell for it. Media were all over that last night.

StatisticallyChallenged · 04/03/2021 12:24

@IsurviveonCoffeeandWinein2021

I have a question about yesterday. I think I have my head around most of it but this bit is bugging me. I think it was Mitchell that questioned NS on why she didn't go down the route of arbitration when that's what the complainers and AS wanted. Now I understand what NS said that she didn't want to use her position to do this but surely legally if it was an option she wouldn't have been doing anything wrong?

I don't agree or disagree really but that point has stuck to where AS conspiracy theory idea might be coming from

I think his conspiracy theory is later. I get the point about not being seen to intervene on his behalf, but I think it would have been better for her to addressing the issue but very openly without the civil service - i.e. saying something like "I have no desire to be involved in the investigation however I have been made aware of it by Mr Salmond. He has also highlighted that he believes there are areas of illegality in the policy...under the ministerial code I have a duty to act on possible illegality therefore can you confirm that legal advice has been sought about these areas, and if not please obtain it."
Dinnafashyersel · 04/03/2021 12:24

Lex which suggests that the original complaints were not characterised as reaching criminal standard at that time?

TheShadowyFeminist · 04/03/2021 12:25

"Now I understand what NS said that she didn't want to use her position to do this but surely legally if it was an option she wouldn't have been doing anything wrong?"

This links to what littlebrowndog asked - the decisions taken in this regard weren't taken with the interests of the 2 complainants uppermost in their considerations. And the charge of political motivation in that respect (as well as the referral to police/crown agent) still reads as plausible as a result. I picked up on a tweet (which I've now lost) which says that the reasoning to refer as potentially criminal allegations wasn't justified as it wasn't an active current risk at that point, it was past behaviour & he was no longer in the working environment of the individuals who made the complaints. Plus, the criminal referral didn't happen when they'd concluded their investigation or gathered the relevant information relating to the allegations. If there was the possibility of criminal prosecution, why did they not make that referral when they'd established the information? Makes no sense.

The refusal to even ask the complainants about the offer of arbitration is the same. This was a process that was used for what looks like political reasons, not 'duty of care' as employer etc.

The decisions were wrong for many reasons - the alternative cost huge sums, the complainants were effectively forced into a pathway not of their choosing & were denied active input/involvement in how this was handled, they weren't referred onto support/advocate services as the police repeatedly told the government should be done.

All the key decisions made were not made in an altruistic way, and "shucks, we tried our best, isn't AS a nasty man" just doesn't cut it IMO.

Dinnafashyersel · 04/03/2021 12:25

stats agree with your wording to recuse.

WaxOnFeckOff · 04/03/2021 12:26

Agree and as I and others keep pointing out. AS is not on trial here and for her to keep pointing the finger as if he hasn't been cleared is deflection and I'm not surprised he is angry.

Again. I am no fan and completely believed the allegations and was shocked he wasn't found guilty, but having looked at the evidence presented, the verdict looks correct.

LexMitior · 04/03/2021 12:27

@Dinnafashyersel

Lex which suggests that the original complaints were not characterised as reaching criminal standard at that time?
Exactly
IsurviveonCoffeeandWinein2021 · 04/03/2021 12:28

Thanks everyone! These threads are so informative and helpful. I agree Wax this isn't his trial and some of the media headlines today just go to show how biased our media are. Don't want to derail with Andrew Neil again but he did try and slip it in on this morning today. (Joys of studying from home 😂)

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