Here come those tiers again.

[Cismyfatarse]

New Fred.

I don't understand why people are accepting that is ok not to see their friends and family without a plan. If there was a plan and metrics for when we've enough control to be able to see family...daydreaming again.

So all of your extended family on both sides don't live in Scotland kurt?

One set of parents are in pretty bad health but I'm more concerned about the overall relationship than one last visit.

I think @kurtrussellsbeard us implying that I’m a selfish fucker

No. My family are all around. England Scotland Europe. Lost a parent during last lockdown and it was awful.

Hard to buy into a bigger picture when there is no exit strategy.

I am really sorry for people who have family abroad, and I want a holiday too.

I do think though that allowing holidays means another winter like this, and I personally don’t think it’s worth it.

No I'm saying quite plainly that you can't or won't see the bigger picture. You aren't selfish because like you say you're just railing. How can you be selfish for wanting something?

If you were the Celtic team inDubai spreading around covid when their season ticket holders are losing their livelihoods then you'd be selfish.

It's not selfish to want something.

I get it @anon444877 but we do recognise the need for an exit strategy even if their isn't one so we can still agree that there is a bigger picture and despite all this lockdown shit the numbers are still a tad high.

*there

I'm so sorry for everyone else separated from their loved ones.

As I said earlier, my whole birth family is abroad a long-haul flight away, as is one of DH sisters and their family, and his other sister and family is in England. His parents are not getting any younger and they live for seeing their grandchildren.

Are Devi and co honestly expecting people to just give up these relationships on an indefinite basis?

Yes, there are currently exemptions to travel bans. But I'd assumed that "zero covid closed borders" would involve more than that. Surely now no one (or pretty much no one) is travelling for a non-essential reason. Everyone (caveat: there may be the odd tourist, but their numbers I assume are negligible...) trapped by the hotel quarantine requirements will have a justifiable reason for travelling. Visiting ill or dying relatives or attending funerals abroad. Working abroad. Accessing medical care abroad (actually, they may not have to quarantine on return, but not sure if that's been confirmed yet or not) . Supporting vulnerable people, travelling to access education and so on. But I understand that they will still need to quarantine - even offshore workers may not be exempt according to reports this morning... I'd have thought they'd have clarified that before now, but hey.

So it's not ridiculous to suggest that in the hypothetical closed border Scotland there would be similarly few exemptions. Or rather, they would be allowed to travel but end up having to pay thousands in quarantine, putting it out of reach of anyone but the wealthiest.

It probably is hyperbole suggesting it will be "forever". But someone said the other day their industry was projecting 2027 for return to full normality/ productivity. Which may as well be forever for someone with elderly relatives abroad, or children not able to see parents or whatever.

I'm not saying it's impossible or an awful idea (though I'm veering to the latter frankly) but there are many many awful consequences that I don't think have been fully factored into the elimination strategy as far as I've seen. I understand the "well, we're not being allowed anything at the moment anyway, and spreading the virus will just make everything worse so we may as well take away some people's rights to see their family to make things better for the rest" argument. But I don't think it's a particularly fair argument and some people will suffer much worse than others.

I am a railer by nature - I'm currently in my kitchen with a beer railing about Brexit - but I can't get worked up about this because I don't see any alternatives. It's an extraordinary pandemic, it demands extraordinary constraints on our lives.

@kurtrussellsbeard

If it gets to the stage that you don't feel like your kids are going to see their grandparents again then take them to see them. I'm assuming you're meaning if ill or whatever.

That's what I did. With no hassle and absolutely no guilt.

Nobody is suggesting that your children should never see family members again. If that's the circumstance then you would be allowed to travel.

But that's the point. Yes, you'd be allowed to travel to see them, it would be exempt from the ban - but you'd face thousands of pounds of quarantine on return. Some families could maybe meet that cost, but many wouldn't be able to. So they wouldn't be able to visit a dying relative in practice.

I do worry @NotAnActualSheep about the extra inequalities on those who can't afford to quarantine.

The Scottish Government have set up a welfare fund to allow those in that position financial aid.

I would hope to see those travelling to visit terminally ill relatives will be exempt but if they're not then hopefully that would cover it.

If it doesn't I'll be going to my MSP.

But when will the numbers get lower

What is a low number

It’s this endless. Not yet not yet

Goes on and on

September since we last were allowed anyone in our houses

Why are there so many people catching COVID in hospitals?

I heard that on radio Scotland this morning

It’s like a low level droning of misery in my ear with doesn’t seem to be a route out

Yes. Some of that inequality could be removed by allowing them to quarantine at home, as everyone returning from abroad is currently required to do anyway. But this mandatory hotel quarantine thing just seems excessive (in concept and in cost). I assume the cost has been agreed with the hotels to recoup some of the lost earnings of the past year, as it's definitely more than the going rate for a travelodge! And yes, it probably will discourage people from illegally travelling on a fun holiday. But those aren't the people it will disproportionately affect.

I think you're right @NotAnActualSheep it's designed as a deterrent. It's excessive for that reason.

Just thinking I know a child who sees his Dad in England, every other weekend, by court order.

How on earth would that work a hotel quarantine for the mum and SDad who do the drop off and pickups?

@kurtrussellsbeard

The Scottish Government have set up a welfare fund to allow those in that position financial aid.

I would hope to see those travelling to visit terminally ill relatives will be exempt but if they're not then hopefully that would cover it.

If it doesn't I'll be going to my MSP.

Oh, I didn't realise that That could get expensive though, as anyone with a justifiable reason to travel would surely qualify? I'm not sure the SG would want to go down the route of some justifiable reasons to travel being more justifiable than others...

I wonder how much scope, if indeed any, the Scottish Government will have for pursuing a zero covid strategy if Westminster takes a very different approach, as looks almost certain?

Borders aside, and I await with interest to see how road/rail borders are going to be policed to stop returning travellers, the funding isn't going to continue forever. It will be a very hard sell indeed to keep a high level of restrictions and businesses closed with no money forthcoming to mitigate any of it. Westminster certainly isn't going to fund a seperate Scottish strategy.

NotAnActualSheep I suspect that funding would not be available for business travellers as companies would be expected to pay. Which rather humps Scottish residents as it makes them very unattractive compared to their English counterparts.

The other factor though is getting stuck abroad. If the quarantine hotels are full (admittedly far more likely at Heathrow), you get bumped off your flight and have to wait until a slot is available. Who pays for the additional accommodation costs abroad while you're stuck there?

The exemptions don't take into account things like grandparents missing out on their grandchildren.
It's my DH grandparents who are in their 90s.

The UK isn't going to get to elimination or an Australia/New Zealand model of hard lock downs for a single case. Scotland went for elimination but still didn't get there and with imports, haulage and being part of the UK its not going to happen.

Attempts to do so will work for a few months before people get fed up and many are already there. Our lives have been on hold for a year whilst I will accept some things like wfh, not going shopping or to gigs, I won't accept a it's a pandemic suck it up and deal with it for an indefinite time period.

This virus isn't going anywhere ever now its out of Pandora box so we have to learn to live with it. Yes adapt behaviours but separating families indefinitely isn't going to magically solve the problem!

Yeah I would imagine the funding is for compassionate reasons and things like that. Employers would need to take the hit for business stuff.

Employers would need to take the hit for business stuff.

Any suggestions for the self-employed?