Don't tier the pants out of it.

[Cismyfatarse]

Thread level 47.

@Wbeezer

Sad news from my neck of the woods, a teenager from DS3s school (year below him) went missing on Friday and was found dead today. I've been half expecting something like this to happen but fervently hoping it wouldn't. Feel so sad for his family and friends.

That's devastating.

Four - four - people I know died by suicide last year, since the pandemic began.

I think we're only seeing the tip of the mental health iceberg.

@NotAnActualSheep

That could well be the case includewomen but I agree, they really need to say so if we are stuck in lockdown til March or May or whenever they consider enough people have been vaccinated.

I confess I don't really see why drag should matter though. If cases are at a certain level, they are at that level, regardless of how quickly the virus spreads. Future predictions on hospitalisation etc are built into the thresholds for the tiers, so they could be taken into account if it is more spready than originally thought. Also, the SG have always had the flexibility to change the relevant thresholds or restrictions if they don't think they are appropriate (or just keep areas in a higher tier than the numbers suggest anyway as per Edinburgh before Christmas, and Midlothian forever). It just seems harsh to restrict the entire country so much with no get out clause or timescale.

How did your citizen panel go yesterday, btw. Did you come up with a Plan?!

It was really interesting, but it's a four week thing so we won't make recommendations until the last week.

Next week we're hearing evidence from a range of people: someone to discuss the vaccination rollout, a behavioural psychologist to discuss compliance fatigue, various economists to discuss pros and cons of various approaches etc. Then the following week we discuss all that we learned and try to come up with some top priorities.

Yesterday UBI was quite prevalent in what people want to see, thought that was really interesting and was wondering what you guys would think about that.

@Wbeezer

Sad news from my neck of the woods, a teenager from DS3s school (year below him) went missing on Friday and was found dead today. I've been half expecting something like this to happen but fervently hoping it wouldn't. Feel so sad for his family and friends.

I believe he was friends with my nephew. Such sad news x

Pardon the ignorance, but what is ubi?

Universal Basic Income possibly?

Groovee sorry about your DH, hope it all turns out well.

@titsbumfannythelot

Pardon the ignorance, but what is ubi?

Universal basic income - rather then benefits or things being means tested everyone receives a income from the government

Mainly I'd like to see the costings for UBI - how much extra will it cost and where is the money coming from? Scotland is spending more than it raises in taxes as it stands.

In principle it's a reasonable idea.

Im quite keen on UBI, back in the 90s lots of people I know (lots of arty graduates mainly) went on the enterprise allowance scheme, that plus housing benefit was enough to get by on while they started various creative businesses the majority if which turned into self sustaining careers, I think UBI could work in a similar fashion.
DH tried a four day week in his company for a while, he found that worked well too.

That's terrible Wbeezer

Just going by the increased frequency of the level crossing being shut, suicide is definitely up. I've also just been looking for a thing I read by someone at the local soup kitchen talking about the numbers of users that have died since they started which was just prior to Christmas - i think it was saying something like 10 (drug and alcohol deaths) in the space of a few weeks but I can't find it now. The gist was that they'd had some comments about it just being druggies and jakies and they were pointing out that these were relatively young adults who were people's sons and daughters and brothers and sisters and were a vulnerable group and there for the grace of god etc. I'm not religious but the sentiment is the same. The loss of jobs and opportunities may have this type of fallout too. Of course they will only be important if any of them had a positive test for covid....

Problem with UBI is what level to set it at. Basic state pension is higher than most amounts proposed. The benefits cap within UC is above £20k for a couple or £13k for a single person. Also issues around the definition of "Universal". This is current thinking from Glasgow City Council
basicincometoday.com/glasgow-city-treasurer-to-call-for-universal-basic-income-trial-support/

My tuppence worth. Tax credits could have been adapted to cope with current situation much better than UC and furlough but no-one wanted to revisit that. Focus on UBI just looks like a buzzword distraction.

The problem with UBI is that there are lots of jobs critical to run the country that are poorly paid. So there needs to be enough differentiation in the amount of UBI to the wages for low paid work. Unless you have a particular calling, why would you work a 40 hour week as a care home domestic when you could get enough to live on without working? You'd save money on travel etc so may end up no worse off - repeat for supermarkets, cleaners, security guards, delivery drivers etc etc. So the expectation is that private businesses pay wages but the government decides the level of UBI.

In theory if we could afford it, I don't have a problem but didn't the trials in Sweden??/Norway?? fail?

I think it might have been Finland? And they found it cut productivity maybe? Off the top of my head.

Yeah, I can't remember the details, just that it hadn't had as positive an outcome as they had hoped.

@IncludeWomenInTheSequel I think it depends on how they do it and if it truly would be universal to all or would it be back to the you can have it but actually we are then going to tax you to the nth degree so that it puts you off having it.....

I don't think ubi is a magic wand people will still complain and how is it to be paid for no doubt by huge taxes on others!

I already pay 2K more in tax then my London counterparts, can't claim CB as its not worth the hours of self assessment tax forms for about £5 a year and frankly get fed up with being told that I should contribute more to society just because!
I came from a working class family, paid for both my undergrad and postgrad degree myself (born and grew up in England) and got to where I am by bloody hard work including 5years of 60+ hours a week job.

UBI will probably be the same for people like me deemed "wealthy" to pay for it all I don't mind paying a bit more tax (I grumble at Scottish govt not keeping in line with UK govt) but I'm by no means wealthy I live in a 2 bedroom house which is mortgaged and we have a second hand car which is owned outright. I don't get into debt but don't have masses of savings as childcare takes a large portion of salary!

Wbeezer I often make comments similar to yours. So many now successful 50 somethings were supported throughout the 80s on Unemployment and Housing Benefit. Almost all the celebs you can think of. When I was a student Grants were a thing and I could even sign on in the holidays.

Sometimes hard to reconcile how people talk about Thatcher's Britain because I was there and the social safety net had far fewer holes than now. It's almost like we have collectively created a giant bogeywoman to justify our current callousness.

Oh I hate Sundays now.

I can’t face another week of this

Finland and Canada (I think) only ever trialled UBI as a means to transition long term unemployed into employment so a very small target group who would otherwise be on other benefits.

ok, just read an article which says that they trialled it in Finland with a small group of unemployed people and that in terms of wellbeing people felt better and maybe made them more employable and that in a few examples it resulted in some entrepreneur type activity but the difference between those and other unemployed was negligible in terms of actually gaining employment and that a bigger study comparing it with a working population would be needed. That's, I think, where problems might lie. It's an interesting concept.

Scottishskifun

That's pretty much how DH feels. It really bugs me that people who work silly hours are taxed more than if they were below the border.

And actually it wouldn't even be so annoying if the money was going to help all children, seeing it invested in schools. Instead it seems to go on extra child benefit and baby boxes.

I think in the context of post-COVID recovery it would be a tool for people who have been on furlough but will not have jobs/companies/industries to go back to.

For me it's a good inroad because I think it's a move towards the kind of country I'd like to live in.
Also four day working week is in on the list for consideration, along with all jobs being open to job-sharing. And free public transport.

Think that's as far as I can remember in terms of concrete ideas.

"I'm just hoping by mid Feb we can go back to the tier system..... Who would of thought I would have longed for the days of tiers......"

I had that discussion with my DH today - had been looking at self-catering for the summer but then was saying if we got back to tiers we might be able to go away (even in our own LA) for Easter?

It's not the coming up with the ideas that is the problem, it's the paying for them. The ideas need to come with details of how much they'd cost and how that would get paid for. I'd also love to live in a country with such policies and I'd be happy to pay more, but not to see the money hoarded or pissed up the wall.

Similar to PP, brought up in poverty but now do alright but then I don't live an extravagant life.

@Sturmundcalm, but then the tiers were never properly allocated on the criteria laid out so for me it makes no difference. Even when we had low levels in Stirling or had a specific contained break out, we still got shafted on a tier 1 or 2 levels above what we should have had so I have no hope of things getting any better to be honest

@WaxOnFeckOff I know - I found the lack of correlation between the criteria and the allocated levels really frustrating but being in A&B means generally a lower level AND we can go somewhere 100 miles away within our own LA...

TBH what I really want is the ability to have a friend round for a bloody cuppa - feel so trapped!

@Lockdownbear yep it's very frustrating and many people I know have more disposable income then we do despite earning less due to the balance of income (I am the main earner in our house DH works PT) , more assistance and lower taxes. But we are deemed wealthy under tax purposes
To me it's the polar opposite of what I was taught as a child of you succeed in life by working hard reality is actually you get less support, taxed more and basically expected to just get on with it paying into a system that other then NHS and teachers you get zero back from!