Councils restricting all children to six Nat 5 choices - any push-back from parents?

[OhBuggerandArse]

I'm trying to find out whether there is any organised resistance to the decision by a number of Scottish councils to restrict the number of Nat 5 exams to be taken to 6 per child? I'm very worried indeed about this, not just for my own kids but for the direction of education in general. It is already beginning to have a damaging effect on pupils coming through to HE - I know it is technically possible to do a crash higher in subjects not taken at Nat 5 level, but the disincentive for any
subject with a cumulative aspect (languages, music, etc) is really significant. I can't see any way of getting councils to move on this without significant outcry from parents, and would really like to find out if there are any campaigns already up and running.

No that's not right Arkadia. You must only have seen half the paper. English is 30% portfolio of written work (1 piece fact based, 1 creative), 30% comprehension and text analysis and 40% Literature (20% set Scottish texts and 20% teacher's choice).

Mine have both covered poetry, Shakespeare, contemporary film, American film and literature and standard dystopian fare.

Higher follows similar pattern and so unlike in England no need to choose Language or Literature post Nat 5 either.

I'm the Mumsnetter that Howabout name dropped.

My son goes to a state school In Aberdeenshire. It's a top ten state school in Scotland according to school
League tables, so in theory should offer a broad education.

The school only offers 6 Nat 5s though which is pitiful for the more able kids. They are, however, willing to be flexible by offering some subjects early or are happy to support an external candidate by allowing them to sit exams in the school. This is not widely advertised to parents though and you have to ask.

My very able son was allowed to sit Higher Music a year early instead of a sixth Nat 5. They were also willing for him to enter French Nat 5 as an external candidate ( I taught him this as a have a French degree).

There are some subjects such as music which have mixed ability classes of Nat 5,Higher and Advanced Higher students in the same class.

They do however offer a reasonable range of Advanced Highers which they would not be able to do if they offered 7/8 Nat 5s apparently.

One of his AH classes only has 4 students but they only receive 3 hours of timetabled lessons a week and the rest is independent study.

I'm in two minds whether it's best for the more able students to sit 7/8 Nat 5s if there would be a squeeze in AH options. For my son, as he's applied to Oxford (he's just been interviewed), the three AHs are highly desirable. For a student wishing to study at a Scots Uni, like most do, possible the extra Nat 5s would be more useful especially to avoid early specialisation.

The jury is out......

There are some subjects such as music which have mixed ability classes of Nat 5,Higher and Advanced Higher students in the same class.

One of his AH classes only has 4 students but they only receive 3 hours of timetabled lessons a week and the rest is independent study.

Aurea’s post highlights that the different number of Nat5s isn’t the only variation. I’ve no idea how a teacher manages to deliver 3 different exam syllabi to 3 groups within the same teaching time!

I also don’t think it’s reasonable that some pupils get 5 hours teaching time a week for an AH, and others have only 2 (with the rest of the time as independent study). Sure, some independent study time is good at that stage, but most pupils already have free periods for that, and they still need teacher input and help with content.

www.heraldscotland.com/news/15672879.advanced-higher-pupils-teaching-themselves-as-school-recruitment-crisis-bites/

Agreed Wimpling Consortium arrangements in my LA deliver full timetabling for all AH afaik (ie 6 50 minute periods a week) This also leaves plenty of time for independent study even if a pupil chooses 3AH plus - much better than rushing to overcrowd S4 and S5 imo. Also better than pushing Highers into S4 early presentation or 6 in S5.

The compromise is travel between locations but as consortium classes straddle lunch there is time for this. There is a choice of schools for some AH options. This means schools can offer different timetabling options to avoid clashes and give even more timetabling flexibility.

Many consortium subject classes are full of AH pupils - no need for mixed teaching / best use of teaching resource / better learning environment for like minded / ability pupils.

That said Maths at least, seems to involve bitesize teaching plus lots of supervised practice so possible to "borrow" teacher resource from. I think English with its dissertation element may be similar and I suspect others could defend a similar approach to other subjects.

Music is something which can be mixed for Higher / Advanced Higher. It is 60% individual performance which is dependent on individual practice plus 1-1 support - oh and plenty of practice space. It also works better for anyone wanting to crash AH as they can catch up on gaps from Higher. Probably possible to add Nat 5 pupils if stagger rehearsal / teaching time over 6 hours but not convinced on this.

This obviously isn't possible for rural areas.
I suppose the problem is that too few pupils study AHs. Unlike in England, where taking A'levels is the norm.

The really rural areas of Scotland effectively have 6th form colleges. So academic pupils transfer schools for S5 and S6. This is also an option in less rural areas with fewer pupils wanting to do AH.

85% of Scottish students go to Scottish Unis. Very few Scottish Uni courses (if any) require AHs if pupils meet the Higher entry requirement in S5. Even where they are preferred there are access arrangements where applicants can demonstrate lack of access to AHs. The 4 year degree structure facilitates this. There is also the college HNC/HND route.

All Scottish pupils therefore have access to Highers which in turn give access to all Scottish Universities. This is not the case for English students seeking entry to English Unis without A Level provision.

Worth remembering that over 50% of English schools don't have a 6th form and less than 50% of English pupils take A Levels. Even fewer take the 3 which would get them to what we consider a Uni.

AFAIK Medicine, Dentistry and Vet Med at Scottish Unis all require academic AH in 6th year, usually in Chemisty and sometimes Biology.

Although M Eng courses don’t require AH for entry, AH Maths would be a huge help to most students.

This of course is for applicants who do have access to AH or equivalent.

Medicine etc don't accept applicants after S5. However academic prerequisite is based on S5 qualifications. If they are not met, then AH are required in S6, but actually it is doubtful that any S6 combination could overcome failure in S5, depending on institution.

www.gla.ac.uk/undergraduate/degrees/medicine/#tab=1

Agreed AH Maths is useful (but not necessary for MEng). It also tends to be the most widely available AH and therefore the easiest to access. It is also resource cheap to teach.

I know 20 pupils who received offers last year from Scottish universities for the courses I mentioned and every one of these was conditional on AHs at BB or BBB in 6th year .

These conditions were IN ADDITION to the grades they got in 5th year, which were AAAAAA, AAAAA or AAAAB.

That is because the offers are always conditional on S6 results. However if a student doesn't have access to AH there is no requirement to have them AFAIK. BB at AH only gives 30 or so extra UCAS points if the student has the underlying Higher at A. Whereas a crash Higher at A alone gives 33. A student with a 4 extra Higher programme would have a higher offer to make than someone uprating Highers to AH.

The Universities make S6 conditions contingent on the application's programme. There is no requirement on what AHs to take, but often a requirement to do Higher Biology in S6 if 3 sciences weren't taken at S5.

The main reason for S6 Conditions is to keep academic focus while building maturity and depth/breadth (as I understand it)

The Universities make S6 conditions contingent on the application's programme. There is no requirement on what AHs to take, but often a requirement to do Higher Biology in S6 if 3 sciences weren't taken at S5

Medicine , Dentistry and Vet Med DO have requirements about which AH to take, usuallly AH Chemistry and AH Biology. It would be quite hard to take AH in Biology in S6 if you hadn’t taken H Biology in S5.

If you hadn’t taken H Biology in S5, you would need to find a course that will take you with AH Chemistry , another AH and H Biology at S6. You would need to look at individual courses in Scotland to find out if there is one. It would work for Dentistry but not for Vet Med and I’m not sure about Medicine.

And none of these three courses require H Physics, unless it’s a substitute for H Maths. So there is no need for three sciences at S5 or S6. Which is just as well as many schools don’t offer that at S3/4.

And it doesn’t matter if 4 extra Highers would get more UCAS points than 2 or 3 AH. It makes much more sense for most pupils to do AH or a vocational course in subjects which are either a condition of their entry or will be useful on their course.

So if you have an unconditional offer for M Eng based on your AAAAB at S5, you could do AH Maths and maybe AH physics or Mechanics or a relevant course at college.

You wouldn’t “add breadth” and increase your UCAS points by doing H French, PE, Geography and Music .

If you have an conditional offer for Medicine, you will do AH Chemisty , AH Biology and AH / H in something else academic in which you are pretty sure of getting at least a B.

Which takes us back to the point of this thread, which I think was the implications of having fewer subjects at S3-4, which restricts your choices at Higher. This has consequences for courses ( like the ones I have mentioned ) which require the grades at Highers to be achieved at one sitting.

To get into these courses, you need to meet their grades by doing the required subjects AND then make sure your other choices are dead cert A. So having 7-8 to choose from is arguably better than 5-6.

However it may not matter for many other post school choices, as more Highers can be done in S6.

Suggest anyone thinking it is essential to do Higher Biology in S5 if considering Medicine double checks with the Universities. It is not my understanding and the UoG link I posted explicitly states that it is acceptable to take Higher Biology in S6.

I know several pupils who have taken Biology and Chemistry in S4 and then realise it is too much of a jump to crash Higher Physics in S5 or S6. This has been to their detriment. (belt and braces is crash Biology in S5 plus the other 2 but this is even more limiting than 6 Nat 5s in S4).

Fairy I suggest if you know 20 would be medics then you are not operating in a state school environment. The National average of state pupils meeting the Medic S5 entry requirement is below 3%. In my area it is closer to 1%. It seems disingenuous to have a discussion about the best approach to curriculum for all state educated children without being up front about this.

At an Edinburgh Open Day, an admission officer said that the absence of Higher Biology in particular in S5 could put applicants at a disadvantage for Medicine. It's so competitive and all boxes need to be ticked....I understand Glasgow aren't so fussed and will accept Higher Biology in S6.

Don't take my word for it though - email the admissions team and check.

This thread is really interesting but I do think worrying about whether your dc has 6 or 7 Nat options is like worrying what’s for breakfast when you’re travelling on the titanic. We need to hope that our children will have qualified (and ideally not burnt out) teachers in front of them. We need to demand in the next election that cuts in education budgets stop - there isn’t enough for staffing at the levels of the past, so subjects have to go. And we need to be sure teaching is an attractive enough career that enough new applicants start and experienced ones don’t leave for other jobs.

The disadvantage of doing fewer subjects is less if most others schools do the same. If it was a choice between 6xB grades or 7xC which would you want? There needs to be enough time to thoroughly teach the course.

Hi Aurea. Bored on the internet so just had a check through. What you heard from Glasgow is in line with their website. Dundee and Aberdeen, on paper at least, are even more flexible. As you say, Edinburgh is the most keen on Biology but even here not stipulating it as an S5 requirement and certainly not an S6 AH requirement.

Agree with everything you say Mistress.

The disadvantage of doing fewer subjects is less if most others schools do the same. If it was a choice between 6xB grades or 7xC which would you want? There needs to be enough time to thoroughly teach the course.

I would agree. My Dd went on to get 5xA in her 5th year Highers, and ABB at AH, all after she sat 8 Nat 5s in their inaugural year. She only got AAAABBCC as she found the more difficult Nat 5 STEM subjects tough to learn in only 3 periods a week. It's got to be better to take fewer subjects and have more time to learn them thoroughly.

Fairy I suggest if you know 20 would be medics then you are not operating in a state school environment. The National average of state pupils meeting the Medic S5 entry requirement is below 3%. In my area it is closer to 1%. It seems disingenuous to have a discussion about the best approach to curriculum for all state educated children without being up front about this

You can suggest all you like but you are wrong . I fail to see how national statistics prove anything about one or two schools, you obviously don’t understand how averages work.

I said I was talking about applicants to medicine, dentists and vet med, not just Medicine.

And I didn’t say it was essential to take H biology in 5th year , I said that some require it and Ah biology in S6, its certainly desirable and that you would need to check entry requirements. NOT taking biology and chemistry in S5 rules out some choices, which is not a good idea when its so competitive.

In addition, You have made several catagorical statements that are wrong about applying for these courses eg

Higher physics is required in 6th year if not done in 5th year
Unis dont care what AH are done in 6th year
Applicants should do 4 more highers rather than AH
Applicants should Focus on UCAS points

The problem with fewer subjects at Nat 5 is that it gives less choice to able pupils applying to the most competitive courses and / or those who have a significantc change of mind about where their interests or abilities lie.

I agree that many less able pupils may do better with subjects at 4th year but some of them will do Nat 4 in S4 anmd Nat 5 in 5th year.

And of course, what matter most is excellent teaching, I couldnt agree more Mistress.

And you also said that AH are only required if the S5 qualifications are not met . This is incorrect. Applicant who don’t have the grades after S5 wont even get a conditional offer.

Most Scottish unis wont give ANY unconditional offers for these courses based on S5 results, even AAAAAA. The conditional offers are usually because they want the pupils to stay at school and work for S6, not just mess around doing cake decorating and organising the prom .

Medicine etc don't accept applicants after S5. However academic prerequisite is based on S5 qualifications. If they are not met, then AH are required in S6, but actually it is doubtful that any S6 combination could overcome failure in S5, depending on institution

You arre giving a lot of incorrect info on this thread . I dont wnat anyone to read it and be misled. These things matter.

"Medicine , Dentistry and Vet Med DO have requirements about which AH to take, usuallly AH Chemistry and AH Biology. It would be quite hard to take AH in Biology in S6 if you hadn’t taken H Biology in S5."

Quoting you directly Fairy and this is just not the case.

However I have obviously touched a nerve which I have no desire to further aggravate or engage with.

Please link all to the Scottish courses in medicine, dentistry or vet med which give conditional offers that have no requirements on which subjects to take in 6th year.

Vet med Glasgow

Other mandatory requirements: Higher Chemistry at Grade A AND Higher Biology AND either Higher Mathematics or Higher Physics. Advanced Highers in Chemistry AND Biology at Grade A or B

Vet med Edinburgh

SQA Highers: AAAAB. Five Highers to be achieved by the end of S5, including Chemistry (Grade A) and Biology (Grade A) and either Maths or Physics. If Biology has not been studied in fifth year, it should be taken in sixth year to Higher level. If a science subject is not able to be taken in S5, we can accept the subject in S6 providing five Highers have been taken prior to S6. SQA Advanced Highers: BB at Advanced Higher in Chemistry and another science subject. If Physics has not previously been studied to National 5 or Higher level, it should be studied in sixth year to either National 5, Intermediate 2 or Higher level.

Glasgow dentistry

Other mandatory requirements: Higher Biology or Human Biology at Grade A AND Higher Chemistry at Grade A AND Higher English (or ESOL) at Grade C or above AND Higher Mathematics OR Higher Physics. Applicants also require Advanced Higher Biology or Chemistry at Grade B or above

Dundee dentistry

AAAAB (minimum) at the same sitting of Highers, to include Chemistry and another science (from biology, physics or mathematics, and biology is recommended). The other three Highers can be your own choice, and this choice of subject will not influence the assessment.
We also require biology at least to grade A at National 5 and English and mathematics at least to Grade B at National 5, if not studied at Higher. Achievement at National 5 or equivalent will also be taken into account.
Offers will be conditional, based on three Advanced Highers/Highers taken in 6th year, normally at BBB grades.

Edinburgh medicine ( 6 years )

The typical offer is likely to be:

SQA Highers: AAAAB at Higher plus BB at Advanced Higher plus a B at Higher in S6, to include Chemistry and Biology

MBChB at Glasgow

S5 academic entry requirements: No entry from S5. Minimum S5 academic entry requirements: AAAAA/AAAABB
Standard S6 academic entry requirements: S6 Conditional Offers require applicants to achieve EITHER two Advanced Highers (one at Grade A and the other at Grade B) AND one Higher at Grade B OR three Advanced Highers at Grades BBB. There are no subject requirements for Advanced Highers in S6.

St. Andrews BSc A100

AAAAB Highers in S5 including Chemistry (A grade) and one other from Biology, Mathematics or Physics.
Predicted to achieve at least BBB Highers or Advanced Highers in S6 studies.

Aberdeen Medicine

Should our S5 minimum requirements of AAAAB in appropriate subjects be achieved then a typical offer would be Conditional with achievable S6 conditions being set.

Candidates who have achieved the Entrance Requirements, i.e. five full academic courses @ AAAAB or better in S5, may choose to continue their studies in S6 and are free to choose a programme of study which is of particular interest to them, noting: that we expect candidates to engage fully with a S6 programme of study. Higher Biology will prove useful.

Please note that any offer of a place made to an applicant undertaking S6 studies will be a Conditional offer. Each application is considered individually when setting these conditions, but a typical condition is BBB

Dundee medicine

SQA Higher/Advanced Higher AAAB (minimum) AAAAB (typical) at the same sitting of Highers, to include chemistry and another science subject (from biology, physics or mathematics). The other three Highers can be your own choice and this choice of subjects will not influence the assessment. We also require biology at least to grade A at National 5 and mathematics and English at least to grade B at National 5, if not studied at Higher. Achievement at Standard Grade/National 5 will also be taken into account.

Offers will be conditional, based on three Advanced Highers/'crash' Highers taken in 6th year, at BBB grades Candidates who have completed S6 and have not attained the 6th year entry requirements are unlikely to be considered.

If she does some in S2, she should be able to do the usual number in S4.

Bumping to say there is the hope of some good news - the Parliament is asking for views on this and have a consultation open till 4 March. Please do send in your thoughts!

www.parliament.scot/parliamentarybusiness/CurrentCommittees/110962.aspx?fbclid=IwAR27gup0ctSO5QuMEXD5U7rPf3eI56vskM-v-pNP_cGuLjzuJzSCc4wvNFg