Councils restricting all children to six Nat 5 choices - any push-back from parents?

[OhBuggerandArse]

I'm trying to find out whether there is any organised resistance to the decision by a number of Scottish councils to restrict the number of Nat 5 exams to be taken to 6 per child? I'm very worried indeed about this, not just for my own kids but for the direction of education in general. It is already beginning to have a damaging effect on pupils coming through to HE - I know it is technically possible to do a crash higher in subjects not taken at Nat 5 level, but the disincentive for any
subject with a cumulative aspect (languages, music, etc) is really significant. I can't see any way of getting councils to move on this without significant outcry from parents, and would really like to find out if there are any campaigns already up and running.

I missed that Wicked was writing about a private school

I'd be happier than i currently am with what your state school offers howabout.

But it's not what a lot of us have.

Does anyone know if it Is a majority with this cap of 5 or 6 examined subjects in fourth year?

And of those I'd be interested in the proportion of pupils in schools who don't do National 5 work proper until year 4.

My understanding (mostly gained from here) is that Aberdeen council set a limit of 6 across all schools. Stirling schools can choose themeselves and I think they all offer up to 7 but done in different ways. I think some schools are doing an interim drop down in 3rd year with a final reduction in 4th. My DCs school just start slightly early by moving them up a month earlier than most schools. Most move them up at the end of the exams (beg of June) and ours moves them up at the beginning of exams (beg of May). Friend with a child at a Glasgow school did 8 but over 2 years and then they didn't start the Higher syllabus until August so they sorted of wasted June after the exams, not quite sure what the thinking with that was.

The Glasgow schools vary as the council left it up to the individual schools. Howabout's offers 7 Nat 5s. Ds' old school offers 8 Nat 5s - but starts them in the June of S2. Actually, it starts all the new timetables in the June of the previous year, so the S4s also start their S5 (Higher) timetable in June and the S6s start in June too (mix of AHs, Highers and Nat 5s). (and just so you know that they're not left out, the S1s also start their S2 timetable in June )

Both schools appear to exclude PE, RME (and PSE) - so for example, under the previous Nat 4 regime, ds also ended up with a Nat 4 in RME, and would have got a Nat 4 for his "core" PE, except he was doing it as a "proper" subject as one of his Nat 5s.

Originally we were promised that DC would get awarded Nat4s for the "extra" subjects they did in S3 that they didn't take forward such as PE, RME, Music etc, but in the end (like most things promised) it never happened. Not really too much of an issue for the ones that were doing Nat5s/Highers and AHs but might have been useful for some.

I think the ability to award Nat 4s for "work completed" will have been diminished still further as Nat 4 candidates have to be put forward formally and separately (?) as part of an agreement with teachers to reduce their workload/paperwork. I think previously, all NABs had to be loaded up, hence why Nat 4s could/would be awarded. That is no longer required. The downside is that Nat 5 candidates may or may not get a Nat 4 if they fail their Nat 5

My friends DC suffered from that pb . The teacher should have ticked a box saying that she'd completed the relevant pieces of work to qualify for a Nat 4, she didn't as she apparently expected her to pass and she didn't. They were submitting an appeal (not an appeal but you know what I mean) and were hoping that at least she would get the Nat 4 credited but I forgot to ask how that went.

Best of my knowledge Dundee drop to 8 subjects in s3 and then 6 (maximum) in s4. No Nat5 material is taught until s4 (although they do move up in the May or June once the previous lot of exams are over). There’s a pretty limited number of subject choices (for example no school in the city was offering drama). And choices at higher and especially advanced higher are more limited in the more deprived areas.

Agreed wicked. Both our DC appear to have equal levels of flexibility which was great to be able to illustrate. (Very glad you took my critique in the spirit intended)

I am also a financial services specialist (we may well have met in a former life). Also have a DD hoping to emigrate to the US. She is planning on Undergraduate in Scotland and then post grad in the US if she stays in academia. All her University applications also offer a year in the US, which she is also exploring. Her old Mother did Undergraduate in Scotland, professional qualifications in London and then eventually job in the US before dragging her back to the heather.

smile it is definitely not a majority offering 6 or fewer. Once you add up large population LAs (Glasgow, Edinburgh etc) offering 7+ you cover more than 50% of Scottish school children.

The Reform Scotland Document list is quite misleading and inaccurate in places. My old school is down as offering 6. It actually offers 8. Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire are highlighted as 6, but the small print states that more are available for able pupils. The Highlands and Islands typically have hub schools for academic pupils in senior schools so probably only 1 in a large area will be offering full curriculum.

I would want more information to understand better what the approach is in eg Angus and Dundee, if I were planning to move there, as they do indeed seem to be offering less and their school performance stats do seem to be affected.

Thanks howabout.

In the reform Scotland document I see the info on the schools I know about is accurate and no there aren't any extras offered to capable students. There aren't the hours in S4 to teach them, I'm told.

Something I've noticed is that pupils seem to be encouraged to go slow on sitting exams. So many kids whom I saw as being quite capable in primary are doing some of their National 5s in S5. Then they don't have the chance to do their highers in one sitting..which knocks on to narrowing their options of courses. Again it will take a pushy parent to override that.

Forty years ago I went to a poorly performing school in an area of deprivation.

However I had the opportunity to sit the same set of exams as everyone else in the country and prove myself at that point. It would have done me no favours to protect me from that exam system.

Interesting that your experience is so different from mine. The school my DC attend has 40% + from the most deprived category, and significantly above average EAL and SEN so I don't think this is a rich vs poor area issue.

Just out of curiosity I had a look at the published results for one of the Glasgow private schools to compare with wicked in the East. At Nat 5 in S4 they are offering 8. However looks to be compulsory language and 70% doing triple science. Again this translates to less breadth, less choice and much less room for Arts / practical subjects than in my DC's school.

To illustrate the point, the easiest way for schools in your area to close down your misgivings would be to add a 3rd science to their core to make 7. It would add no value to science minded pupils who can easily crash the 3rd in S5/6. It would make for a lot of fruitless hard work for a lot of DC taking all 3 "just in case".

The same private school above only has about a 60% conversion rate from Nat5 to 6 for science subjects. For physics it is less than 50%. The stats are even worse if you look at conversion to "A"s. Less than 30% of pupils who took Nat 5 physics got an "A" at Higher and only 10% at Advanced Higher. (This is a top Glasgow private school with a 5 As at Higher rate of 40% - East Ren's is 13%)

(I started off comparing Physics provision and uptake between Scotland and England in the private and State sectors because English DH and I were arguing the toss over dinner one night. Uptake gets depressed in England because potential Doctors only have 3 options and to play safe mainly choose Chemistry and Biology. They then don't have room for Physics as they would also need Maths / Further Maths to make it useful. Almost all potential Doctors in Scotland have all 3 sciences and maths at higher. The vast majority also have English. The downside for Scotland is that they have to produce far more Physics highers for Engineering etc relative to England because they lose lots to Medicine and even Arts / Social Science degrees - the good news is that relative to their population they actually do).

The school in a deprived area was mine not my children's.

In a system where schools are going gently with students, and protecting them from too many exams, it will be those with knowledgeable and assertive parents who will have an even greater advantage than ever.

Again howabout we come back to your DC's school, it sounds very acceptable to me. I'm not overly interested in comparisons with private schools as the issue for me is uneven provision in the state schools.

I would be wary of judging my old school from the outside, especially if doing so having moved upwards and onwards.

I think it is useful to compare with the private sector if looking for a benchmark. Why push for wider more academic provision in the State sector if, as appears to be the case, it does not actually work for and is not being chosen by the most privileged DC?

smile what subjects are the DC in the schools you are concerned about missing out on by having 6 rather than 7? What does their choice / typical outcome look like - not just in S4 but also by S6?

How do results compare to the National Average (you can see this by looking at the Parentzone dashboard stats)? How are their staying on rates and are they affected by interaction with college sector / local employment market? If it is an unfavourable comparison have the LA taken steps to address it?

Forget my school, I was pointing out one benefit of a single set of exams sat by everyone. It's become confusing.

Neither the private school mentioned nor your children's school is as limited in S4 as my children's school.

The private set up would suit one of my children but not the other as it happens.
However it's not useful as a benchmark to me as it's never going to happen in our state schools. The difference between state schools is an easier argument to have taken notice of imo.

I disagree with you on private schools' relevance to the debate smile. Hutchie is just down the road from East Ren. It has a very similar demographic and actually sits in a relatively deprived area. It can produce 40% with 5 As at Higher to East Ren's 13%. I don't share everyone else's quiet confidence that East Ren is the State sector benchmark.

I’ve been thinking about this thread, and looking at the stats, and it does look like restrictions on number of subjects taken has a negative impact not just on the arts, but on uptake of modern foreign languages. In England almost 50% of students take a language GCSE (and this is slated to rise as they are a compulsory part of the new English baccalaureate). In Scotland only 17% did so in 2018, down from 33% in 2012.

As I said earlier I have seen the effects of "taking the senior phase as a whole" on the gently motivated and it's led to a bit of underachieving imo for individuals. Whereas ime lazy people given a rocket could often apply themselves and pull it out of the bag.

Schools stats are fine I'm told. Maybe I'll have a look later. But tbh I'm not choosing a school now, we are living with this until it's over.

One thing I might say is that I think three sciences is quite normal and not overkill. Nor am not that into the concept of crashing Highers either. No need to answer me as your views on this are clear.I thank you for all your responses by the way even if I don't agree with you.

My kids won't be doing mfl in senior phase in school.

ColdTatty, where did you get those stats from? They'd be very useful for our (MFL) department's attempts to come to a position on this issue.

“My kids won't be doing mfl in senior phase in school.”

Is this a positive or negative in your eyes? I know when I was in school almost everyone took at least one language (bottom set English had the option to do extra literacy support instead). And I think that was probably a good thing (and I rarely say anything positive about my secondary school!)

www.scilt.org.uk/Portals/24/Library/statistics/Language%20Trends%20Scotland%202012-2018%20V2.pdf

@ohbugger This is the link to the Scottish stats.

I would have said they were expected to do one up to age 16 but that was in a scenario of 9 subjects. As they don't particularly like mfl there is no way I'll be imposing one. (As far as one of my kids is concerned the teachers would be relieved!)