Councils restricting all children to six Nat 5 choices - any push-back from parents?

[OhBuggerandArse]

I'm trying to find out whether there is any organised resistance to the decision by a number of Scottish councils to restrict the number of Nat 5 exams to be taken to 6 per child? I'm very worried indeed about this, not just for my own kids but for the direction of education in general. It is already beginning to have a damaging effect on pupils coming through to HE - I know it is technically possible to do a crash higher in subjects not taken at Nat 5 level, but the disincentive for any
subject with a cumulative aspect (languages, music, etc) is really significant. I can't see any way of getting councils to move on this without significant outcry from parents, and would really like to find out if there are any campaigns already up and running.

Anyway having got all that off my chest I have to go! Thanks to all here. Interesting thread.

That link is very interesting. Participation rates at Higher have actually increased for MFL despite falling participation at Nat 5. Am I right in thinking staying on rates have increased in that time, while the cohort has fallen? If so the stats are even more favourable.

Do you have equivalent stats for GCSE and A level in England since the intro of Ebacc? A comparison between State and private would also be illuminating as I do think there is more enthusiasm for MFL in private, certainly at Nat 5.

I wonder how the current debate re Native speakers is being played
out in the Scottish system?

I am still eternally grateful I could swerve MFL in favour of Latin. The demise of Classics in schools upsets me.

howabout It’s pretty likely that we’ll at least know people in common. I took VR a few years ago but DH also works in FS consultancy on the IT side so between us, there’s bound to be a connection or two.

It’s a bit OT, but what bothered me at the time just as much as the varying numbers of allowed Nat 5s, was the course options within schools. We briefly considered moving to Linlithgow and I can’t remember the differences between Nat 5 and Higher course choices, but at AH level, our catchment school, Imveralmond CH only offered three AH (English, Maths and Graphic Communications) while Linlithgow Academy offered 14. The two schools are only 6 miles apart but LA had so many more options. The Council get around this by saying that pupils can study classes at other schools which looks fine on paper but in reality it needs to fit on your timetable and both schools need to agree to it, including organising taxi transport.

At DC’s school (sorry, anyone with no interest in a private school can stop reading!) they are required to do English, Maths and MFL at Nat 5 level. It still annoys me that they don’t allow Latin instead of their MFL! To DD’s horror they are strongly encouraged to do at least one science. I do find it a bit disappointing that you can’t do all three of Drama, Music and Art because you can do all three sciences if you want. I suspect they would say that you can do Music or Art as an enrichment choice but you don’t get a qualification for those.

I do think that having to drop to 6 or 7 at age 14, and then to 5 at age 15 is too young. I think it tends to mean that the child has to choose between science or arts/humanities specialism at 13 or 14. In England they don't have to choose until 16 (start of A'levels). My 13 year old has to choose in the next 2 months. I'm not confident that she has really got a good feel for the sciences at this stage, but she has to decide on whether to specialise in sciences or eg history and MFL. I want her to do maths and English regardless. I would prefer her to be able to do a wide range of subjects until 16. And I don't want her to be faffing about with doing new subjects in only 1 year when she's in her only year of 6th form. I doubt that would result in much depth, and in any event that time needs to be kept for AHs.
We had a look at a private school when she was 11, and the head told me that DD should by then be close to deciding whether to specialise in the arts or the sciences. I wasn't impressed.
Too much emphasis on exams too. It's not all about exam results, tactics about doing the right subjects for uni, etc. What about learning stuff that it's a good idea to learn and know about? This is a narrow and not very in-depth education.

Wicked similar to you, it frustrates me that at my DS’s school you can’t do more than 1 social subject in S3 even though you can do 2 or 3 sciences. He will be able to choose 2 social subjects for S4 but as the school restricts them to 6 Nat5s he needs to decide what he’s going for. (Incidentally the PP who suggested that in Aberdeen City/Shire more able pupils can have the option to do extra Nat5s over the standard 6 - not in any school I know - and that comes from speaking to both parents and teachers in a wide variety of schools, who have pushed for this for more able pupils and been turned down.)

Yes, it's a shame that doing so few subjects means for many that they have to drop drama, music and art at 14 or at least 15. There's only room for the most essential academic subjects.
I'm hoping that DD will be able to take 2 additional highers through home learning. Don't know whether it will be possible though. It's much more difficult to take Scottish qualifications from home.

wicked that is what I suspected West Lothian were doing. We lived there at one time.

We also have consortium clusters for Advanced Higher. It is a much more urban area so provision is spread across schools rather than centralised in one. In the main it works well and gives a good range of options, but pupils do need to be quite organised and motivated - pretty good preparation for Uni. It does mean that all the DC with an interest and aptitude in a subject are concentrated in one place so the class sizes are big enough to give the benefit of shared learning and research with like minded students - DD1 no longer feels like the resident geek which has been fantastic for her social confidence.

Tami I was quoting the Reform Document so happy to stand corrected. Just had a nosy at the stats for Cults. They are pretty impressive, especially given they are not padding them with filler Nat 5s.

Anecdotally Aberdeen had issues with staying on rates due to easy money in oil, so I wonder if this is a factor in lower staying on rates at other schools or whether there is a policy of centralising academic provision in the way West Lothian does?

Thank you for the stats link, ColdTatty.

Just looked in on a current thread on Physics / Maths teaching in state schools in London. Poster has a DC in Y10 (S3) who has NEVER been taught by a Physics specialist. Roughly half of English schools don't have a 6th form so it is unsurprising they struggle to recruit specialists. Less than half of English pupils sit A levels at all ( roughly 70k do any sort of English and 100k for Maths out of a cohort of over 500k)

My DC's average all round comp has 2 Physics specialists who both cover classes all the way down to S1. The school my DD1 does her consortium Advanced Higher Physics at has a Physics teacher for a Head and she is taught different elements of the course by 2 different sub-specialists.

This is a fully comprehensive LA, same as the rest of Scotland, and because of the consortium arrangements the same opportunities are afforded to all the DC across the LA no matter which catchment school they attend. There are also lots of examples of the teachers swapping about between schools to prevent them getting jaded, give them promotion opportunities and even out provision. This happens across all subject areas.

Sometimes I think Scots become so embroiled in internal debate about what could be improved that we forget how lucky we are.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36469254

www.jcq.org.uk/examination-results/a-levels/2018/main-results-tables

Link to comparative attainment stats for Scotland. Scottish school cohort is just under 10% of England's. A* at A Level is same UCAS points as A at Advanced Higher. Uptake of stand alone AS levels, which used to partially cover the breadth gap with Scotland has fallen by 2/3 since the introduction of the reformed A levels.

www.sqa.org.uk/sqa/63001.html

At my kids school they do 7,8 or 9 Nat 5s. Most do 8. They have to take :

English
Maths
MFL ( except kids with dyslexia )
One or more science ( most take 2 )
One social subject
One of computing / business/ tech / graph comm
One of drama / music/ art /
One of PE / home ec and other random subjects

Lots of kids take an extra one of the above and those that are good at PE often do Nat 5 PE within the core PE periods which allows them to sit 9 exams.

Mine have all done this because they like sport and get annoyed with all the kids who mess about in core PE!

As a parent I’m very happy with this range of options. Friends whose children are in Stirlingshire are unhappy that their children only choose after S3 so do fewer subjects at Nat 5.

I know that Scottish unis only count the first 7 Nat 5s but I’m glad that my children have the choice of more subjects at higher.

Also aware that not every child is going on to uni so I’m only seeing things from that perspective .

Your list, with 2 sciences, is 9 kristingle? I thought East Ren had the option to do 3 science?

Scottish Unis don't count Nat 5s at all except where they specify Nat 5 Maths or English as minimums. Scottish Unis do however have long lists of non-preferred subjects for the 5 at Higher in S5 and a lot of pupils don't check this till too late - these lists contain a lot of the options in the last 3 of your list.

This is Williamwood's S3 options form. There are indeed 9 columns. However once you discount PE (nat 5 or core) and compulsory language you are back at 7.

It is actually a broadly similar layout to our 7 of English, Maths, Social, Science, Art, Choice, Choice plus French / German at least till end S3. In fact our layout is more flexible with more choice in language and science.

blogs.glowscotland.org.uk/er/Williamwood/files/2018/02/S3-Options-Form-2018-2019-master-Dec-2017.pdf

For comparison this is Lenzie Academy's 6 Option format. Note the option to do 6 Highers, including 3 science, over 2 years by end S5 - not sure how popular this is, but their stats look like it happens.

www.lenzieacademy.e-dunbarton.sch.uk/media/3260/s4-course-choice-form-2018.pdf

It really isn't a case of "more is better" at Nat 5, although I agree it is worth discussing different approaches. I posted the forms for 2 exemplar schools in the top 10 with completely different approaches just to illustrate how easy it is to research if you want / need to.

Sorry Howabout, you are right. The last column includes core PE and most kids take that.

Also there are random subjects scattered around random columns for some reason I can never fathom. Physics is one of them, it always appears in odd places as well as in the science column.

I think some east ren schools allow 3 sciences at Nat 5 but they are not keen because it means the kids have to drop MFL or a social subject, which goes against BGE I think.

Hope I’ve got that correct .

I just queried because DDs have friends there. A lot of them are doing RMPS within core RE as well. Not sure how common that is? Our school is considering it.

The advantage of being allowed more subjects is that pupils then have the "luxury" of doing art, music, or drama without it messing up future options. When you are only allowed 5 or 6 subjects, that's not possible.

Again that depends Coggle. Lots of the schools with limited Nat 5 options still have very good art / music / drama provision as part of BGE and Nat 5 upwards pathways for DC already committed along this route. A stand alone Nat 5 in any of these subjects wouldn't be any use for further study. Art needs a portfolio of at least Advanced Higher standard, Music needs Grade 8 playing and audition ability regardless of school exams and similar for Drama. Otoh Drama is a good crash Higher to complement Higher English in S6 and Music is a good crash for instrument players.

The danger of giving too many options is that pupils select too many "hobby" subjects at Nat 5 and don't focus properly ready for the next stage.

I absolutely agree with you that I would be concerned if I thought the school my DC attended was using restricted Nat 5 choices to squeeze the Arts. I don't have any experience or knowledge of it happening anywhere in the Scottish state sector.

I don't like everything being about what the child will do at uni. I want a wide, rounded education at least until 16. With room to include the sciences even if you're not going to study science at uni, and vice versa with subjects like history and MFL. And art, music or drama for the sake of it, not because you plan to become a professional. There isn't room for that ATM. In England, there actually is, at least for the higher achievers.

I disagree too. What you call “ hobby “ subject are not just useful themelsevs, they can be part of university entry for even the most denending subjects ( I mean in terms of entry requirements ).

Say if your child applies for medicine and is taking English maths biology and chemistry at Higher. They need AAAAA at one sitting of highers. The medical school don’t care if they take MFR, social subject or Art / music as their 5th subject .

Taking a Physics won’t give them any advantage , either in terms of entry or doing the course.

So if they enjoy and are good at music ( and already have grade 5 theory and play an instrument to grade 6, as many do ) , they would be much better to do H Music ( which they will find fun and easy ) than struggle with Higher Physics or History .

Then again at 6th year. If they have an conditional offer from a Scottish uni they might ask for BB or BBB. English unis might ask for AAA or AAB.

The school might insist On 3 subjects.

The student will have to do one or both or AH chemistry and Biology. Again, their 3rd subject choice should be one they are most likely to get an A in , so again music ( for that pupil ) would be great choice .

Of they could do a crash Higher in one of their best subjects that they had to drop at 4th year. They will have a lot more choice if they did 7-8 Nat 5s rather than 6.

So that “ stand alone “ Nat 5 in geography might be handy to pick up as a Higher in 6th year if you liked it and have a good chance of an A.

It will be similar for other courses that require AAAAA at higher, such as (some) law and M Eng. Yes, they will give unconditional offers from 5th year but they are happy to accept a Higher in SOME of what you term “ hobby subjects “ as long as their essential requirements are met.

I agree that it’s essential to choose the right subjects - Higher Art or RMPS might be ok but Higher Dance or Home Ec might not.

Oops sorry for typos , didn’t preview

Sorry. I should have clarified. I didn't mean to imply that Arts subjects were "hobby" subjects. What I meant was that 6 / 7 subjects is enough for Nat 5 and more risks some or all of them not being taken seriously by DC, whether that is science / IT / Language / Sport / Art / Music.

Aberdeen is mentioned as an area with limited Nat 5 Options. One of the other MNers has a DS from this area applying to Uni from a State school with 6 Highers after S5. One of them is Music. He is doing 3 Advanced Highers iirc in S6 and is half way through the Oxford interview process. There is a discussion on the Higher Education Uni entry thread about UCAS tariff points atm which explains how Scots end up with so many and how diverse their subject mix is.

Post the GCSE shake up and EBacc plus level of selection in English state schools I would be surprised to find any offering full academic and Arts curriculum.

(I have friends and relations with DC all over England in Grammar, Faith, Academy and academically selective and non-selective. The evidence is also clear all over MN)

Over the past few days I have been reading this thread with interest. I have to confess, SS qualifications are a big mystery to me, and I hope that by the time I find out it won't be too late...
In my area they seem to be doing 6 Nat5s. I have to say they seem to be very few for kids this young. To me English, Literature, History, maths, computing and a foreign language are a must (it doesn't matter what you do next), even more so if progress doing science.
But what about physics, geography, chemistry, biology, second foreign language etc etc? When/how are you supposed to take those on? And if you don't, what is the point of an education that leaves so many gaps?

Arkadia English only takes one subject in Scotland - Language and Literature combined. Double science would be Physics and Chemistry as the level of course overlap means Higher Biology can be added in S5 or S6. Computing would be a good option to keep in reserve for S6 if you are worried about breadth early on. If you take History at Nat 5 then Geography can be picked up later.

So 6 subject to meet your specs would be English, Maths, Physics, Chemistry, History and MFL in S4.

Then S5 might be Higher English, Maths, Physics / MFL, Chemistry, History / MFL.

Then S6 might be AH English, Higher Geography, Higher Modern Studies, Nat 5 Computing OR AH English, AH History, Higher MFL, Higher Music OR AH Maths, AH Physics, AH Chemistry OR AH Maths, Higher Biology, Nat5 / Higher Computing, Higher Business studies.

There are endless permutations and combinations around this swapping in PE, RMPS and its variants, and technical subjects depending on interests and academic / practical ability.

Have a play around with the Lenzie link I posted.

Gosh, how confusing. I will need to go on a training course to understand all that before the time comes...
So English Lit is not really done at SS, is it. I had a look at an English national 5 paper and long though it was, it seemed to comprise only reading comprehension and text analysis.

For certain this is going to be a matter to be discussed when we start looking at SSs.