Need to chat about Scottish education stuff

[BoffinMum]

I have just realised how little I know about the Scottish education system and I am supposed to be writing something about it for work. There don't seem to be as many reports and article published about it as the English system, which makes it harder to know what people actually in schools are really thinking and what the mood music is. AuldAlliance reckoned I ought to post something on here and see what the Scottish Mumsnet massive had to say about things, which seems a quite brilliant idea. So anyone around to help answer a few questions?

Although the headmasters final speech (before retiring) at options evening was to tell pupils to forget what they like doing and simply pick the 5 subjects for Higher based on the best 5 Nat 5 prelim results. He said he'd never been a school before where parents and children indulged themselves in their favourites so much....:o

We explained that to DS but left the choice to him and he's chosen his favourites!

and the bit about the schools who encouraged pupils to not do their Maths and English was relating to East Ren/Jordanhill I understand.

DS chose his favourites for Higher including Graph Comm which was a bit random as he doesn't need it for uni and isn't anywhere near his "essay writing" social subject strengths. However when I asked him he said "I like it mum" which was good enough for me. Life is hard enough without sitting facing a subject you detest everyday, and it wouldn't inspire DS or me to study for it either

I agree hiding I think enjoying a subject generally makes you work better at it and therefore should be successful enough. The counter argument is that if you do well in something you'll learn to enjoy it I suppose.

DS1 has no clear idea on what he wants to do, it'll be something computery or engineeringy so he'll need Maths and Physics or Engineering. A decent grade in Nat 5 english may well be all he needs but he is planning to do it in 6th. he just needed a year with no pressure of talk elements.

I've never put any pressure on ds as to which subjects he should take for Higher ok, I'm lying, he knew he had no choice about doing English - the rest were totally his choice and we'd have supported him in whatever he wanted to do. As far as I can make out, that attitude is similar to that of the school's

If, say, he'd wanted to do a crash Higher, we'd have been happy with that. As it happens, he's doing a pretty "standard" Higher combination of English, Maths, Geography, Physics and Chemistry.

He's looking forward to "dropping" English in S6

I'm not a great believer in league tables. My MiL was beside herself that the school her other grandchildren had got into was one of the top whatever in the Glasgow area.

My Dcs just went to their local high school, where there are a good choice for highers and kids can choose whatever combination they want and they both did well.

If you're not academic it doesn't matter what school you go to.

I agree Danyella, but more importantly if you are academic it doesn't matter what school you go to. I think this is even more the case now as there are so many internet resources available. I am a product of the local comp during the teacher's strike 30 years ago. The system served me and my peer group very well even within that context. The current angst over finding the "best" catchment and the obsession with moving to the crowded classrooms of E Renf perplexes me.

It took a long time for the penny to drop for me that English schools are in fact judged on GCSE results because of the existence of 6th form colleges etc. Steering pupils to "soft" subjects and then the introduction of the Ebacc as a counter balance neatly illustrates this.

In contrast it is evident that as most Scottish pupils stay at the same school it is the 5 highers in 5th year standard which is ranked. This means there is a bias towards looking at schools in the context of academic students in Scotland as compared to England.

That's a good point howabout - I never thought of it from that perspective. That would explain the almost total lack of school statistics on numbers of Nat 5s (or previously Standard grades) and anyway, they'd be even more meaningless nowadays given the disparity between implementation between schools and local authority areas and the emphasis on Higher results.

Danyella - I actually agree with you. It's how a school serves all its pupils which is the indicator of whether it's a good school or not. I'd argue that my old school, which did well by the "top" cohort (many of us getting 6 x A for our Highers in S5 ), was not a good school as it didn't care about the less academic at the school, for example, giving my mum, a probationer teacher, the class of ROSLAs (Raising of the School Leaving Age), who of course were just delighted to be spending an extra year at school and could have run rings around a NQT (but my mum no thanks to the school happened to be an inspirational teacher ). Whereas the school she taught at later was much more inclusive: still getting good results for the academic kids but also working hard for/with those that weren't obvious exam fodder.

Island schools do better because they have smaller classes, smaller schools so all the staff know all the children well and don't have private schools creaming off the rich kids who will tend to be higher achievers.

If the schools in glasgows estates had 12 to a class and 300 to a school their results would skyrocket.

My kids go to a very academic school on placing request. It's not that i don't think my catchment school is a good school and bright kids can and do do well there, bullying issues aside I would have considered it. However, i don't believe it was a good school for my children. They do focus a lot on the non academic kids and engaging them in education through sport etc. which is great as that is what suits a major part of their catchment. My kids aren't sporty though. Their preference is to be in a school where the vast majority of pupils want academic success so as a consequence there is very little LLD and it's easier to focus. DS1 in particular does not do well (due to bullying issues) in a classroom where there is a lot of carry on as it makes him anxious.

Sometimes it's horses for courses.

I sent my teens to their catchment high. I didn't go for what was our catchment prior to a change in catchments as out of catchment. I went off that school after hearing that the shambles the called a head teacher had refused to let our friend's son with additional needs sit his standard grades as he would have pulled down their overall results. While he was head there was no way I would allow my children to go there. The new head has made changes and it's for the better.

The head who turned our catchment around was seconded but he left behind a strong management team, and the pastoral care has been amazing for us. It's a smaller school and we have had some higher choices difficulty but hopefully it will work out.

This is all fascinating, and I cannot believe how much I am learning from this discussion, so huge thanks to everyone who has taken the trouble to engage and post.

I was listening to La Sturgeon on the Today programme yesterday and she was being pulled up by John Humphreys on various points, and I completely understood what was going on and was able to think through where the statistical evidence would be to support the arguments he was making, all thanks to this thread!! It was clear to me in the interview that Nicola Sturgeon was trying rapidly to gloss over some of the very growing attainment problems that have come about as a result of CfE colliding with increased class sizes and an effective reduction in per capita funding. If you haven't listened to the interview I would recommend it.

I just wish that NS and co. would take on board that challenge is a good thing. It makes legislation better and stronger and more accountable.

Whoever is in power should be regularly challenged and feel that that is a positive thing.

I agree OneMagnum. However I switched off at the point in the debate where KD expressed support for a teacher strike - I survived it last time, but it was not good for my education. I equally switch off when RD starts to develop education policy for raising attainment based on the experience of the selective gaelic school / Jordanhill and E Renf. None of these schools have statistically significant numbers of pupils below least deprived social demographics 4/5. I have checked because I compare them with my DC's school where almost half the pupils are in group 1/2. My DC would be a 5. Their mixed school outperforms their equivalent demographic in E Renf. E Renf etc do not have a 1/2 group to compare against but their school also outperforms national average for them. The results of the neighbouring denominational school are even better. They never get discussed and neither does the fact that spend per pupil in some of the most deprived urban areas is lower than anywhere else. This is something SNP have talked about addressing but I suspect there will be a lot of resistance to any reallocation of resources towards deprived areas among RD's target audience.

I grew up in poverty and sat my exams during the 80's teacher strikes.

For me, what needs to be tackled is getting parents engaged and supportive of their children's education and to stop them seeing schools as the enemy or as childcare. My own parents weren't particularly engaged as they didn't know how I don't think, but they did instil a decent work ethic and we were all fairly bright so did well enough. Tackling social issues and mentalities is key here as is also schools helping to set aspirational goals and engaging kids into trying to increase their life choices. imo, the reason these schools do well is parental involvement, expectation and support and very little in the way of disruption in the classroom. I don't think these schools have better quality teachers and would argue that in some cases they may not be as good as it is certainly a lot easier to pick up a lesson plan and deliver it to a group of engaged and supported kids than it is to try and inspire and teach while dealing with disengaged disruptive pupils who don't see the point.

Obviously a lot of generalisations there :)

I didn't see the debate either.

Yes you can pour as much money as you like into schools, kids will still flounder if there are no books at home and the patents are illiterate.

Parents

You need to make schools resilient and high reliability so it's hard for kids to slip through the net. And that takes money and a lot more planning.

Agreed Boffin. My DD missed all but 5 minutes of her maths class yesterday for her private music lesson. She looked at the board and worked out what she missed and when I asked her to explain why you add indices when you multiply she said it was obvious and explained it in great detail. She is never going to fall through the cracks. If she were struggling I would point her in the direction of Prof google. Then I might take pity and talk something through. Then I might consult DH. Then I might buy a book. Then I might consult my teaching friends. Then I might employ a tutor.

This is the approach of most parents in E Renf as evidence by the blossoming tutoring industry. To replicate my DD's advantages in a mixed demographic comp you need to look at providing HW support and supervision, extra teaching resource, extra library resource, extra IT resource. If enough of that is there then parentage should become less relevant. However beyond that there are wider issues around the impact of poverty on a DC's ability to engage with education. I don't think that is the job of the education system but as long as child poverty is increasing and social care is being cut it will be the education system which will show the effects.

My two are in Primary.

The school is 40 years old and the windows are held in with masking tape.
No equipment in the 'play'ground.
there are almost NO computers. No iPads.
No Music (no instruments) or Art teachers. PE - 2 hours a week.
No School Clubs. almost no School Trips.
Deprived, in every sense.
Poor teachers 'cannot be sacked'.
Teachers manhandle kids, and mock them about their nationality (very white Scottish here...). SNP badges openly worn in school at the IndyRef.

Both my kids are dyslexic. One was acknowledged to be so aged nearly 12. At that point he was offered 10 mins 3xweek with the playground assistant to 'go over words'. No proper assessment or support.
One is now 9 - this is her work:
'dog was having a strange dreeme. that a canon was going of. she opend here eyes and sore and army van coming twrods here. it was that it sotped next to she she saw two peole claming owt. she trid to run away but they were to farst for her. she got chcked into the bak.' Apparantly, she 'doesn't need assessment' and 10 mins with same playground assistant once or twice a week is 'good, she is doing well'.

Parents evenings are twice a year. There is no opportunity to see your child's work.
There is little way of judging whether they are 'falling behind' as the achievement 'bands' are SO wide and SO woolly as to be useless.
The CforE is highly political.
My dd was told she had been 'selected for random assessment' recently. The paperwork which came home told me she must 'try her best for Scotland'.

Talking about this with dh: I wonder if we have a rosy view of education because both schools that ds has attended have excellent leadership: a brilliant headteacher supported by a strong SMT with a supportive Parent Council. Very much focussed on getting good results for all their pupils (to use the secondary school jargon, "positive destinations").

Ds' primary school was similar to DailyMailFail's (except for the "whiteness"): falling to bits but moves into a new school on Friday , overcrowded, no after school clubs, no Art/Music/PE teachers (generally delivered by the McCrone teacher), minimal number of computers which suffered/broke down from being carted around the school (no "computer" room or library), no iPads - but the teachers worked their guts out to overcome those shortcomings. None of the shocking racism or manhandling though - would never be tolerated at such an ethnically diverse school.

No overt politics at the school (nor at the secondary) either.

So how much is it good leadership at the school, because/despite of leadership at the council, and/or because/despite of direction from the Scottish Government?

That random assessment DailyFail might have been the SSLN, which is at P4, P7 and S2. I've just spent the last two days doing ours in school. Not the best use of my time

hiding Yy, dd is P4, so that would make sense. There is 'no possibility of testing for dyslexia - no resources' but they can 'test her for Scotland' (how dare they tell an 8 year old her test is 'for Scotland'?

pretty our LA is 'notorious' according to govan Law Centre. The Council is awful but the SNP know and don't care. So the Council stays awful and kids are failed miserably.

I'm a SfL teacher and we have it drummed into us that if a parent asks for a dyslexia assessment on their child we have a legal obligation to carry one out and report back to parents within 6 weeks. It's the law according to the Education Act (Scotland) which was amended in 2009.

Have you been on www.enquire.org.uk? Lots of useful info on there