Need to chat about Scottish education stuff

[BoffinMum]

I have just realised how little I know about the Scottish education system and I am supposed to be writing something about it for work. There don't seem to be as many reports and article published about it as the English system, which makes it harder to know what people actually in schools are really thinking and what the mood music is. AuldAlliance reckoned I ought to post something on here and see what the Scottish Mumsnet massive had to say about things, which seems a quite brilliant idea. So anyone around to help answer a few questions?

My dcs went to the local village school with no more than 40 pupils at any given time. 2 teachers, so dc2 has been in a P1-3 with the same teacher and will move to the "big" class of P4-7 in August. There'll be less than 20 pupils in that class. However they all transition to a big comp in the nearby town for secondary. There's about 1800 pupils on the roll, from all walks of life. DS1 is in S5 and has friends whose parents are lawyers and doctors, whilst others parents have never worked in their lives. I drop off both teens at friends homes from the local sink estate to the local millionaires row. Their friends are all in their classes, so sitting Highers shortly or in the first set maths/Lang/sciences.

I also went to the same two schools - for two uneducated manual workers who knew the way out of poverty was education. I have an honours degree and I am a teacher for my sins

*there's a chunk missing from that post. The two uneducated manual workers were my parents. The important thing was that they were largely uneducated, and left school at 15, but they were not unintelligent - not by a long chalk.

I teach is a secondary school extremely like the one described above and agree whole heatedly with hiding's assessment.

I teach classes where kids who live in mansions sit next to kids who have no wall coverings and share beds for heat. It is very hard work to teach well and suit all but when it works it is magnificent

I would like to see the Scottish kids have a go at SATs just to see how the levels compare with English kids. I know English people hate them, but at least it does focus the teaching on learning formal work. My dc are at a small primary school but it just seems like fun all the time - and very little proper learning.

As a teacher I have no wish to teach towards SATs or put my children through them. I'm glad your children seem to have lots of fun at school - that's how it's supposed to be, surely?

Ds' (Glasgow) school is like that: quite literally ranging from millionaires' kids to those that have not eaten for days None of ds' friends are that disadvantaged, but I know that that's the sort of thing that the school has to deal with. ^^

I'm still not sure ds realises how lucky he is but having friends who live in a small flat above a pizza shop or who've been on the receiving end of Islamophobia or who can't participate in a sports game because they've been up all night helping their parents in the shop will go some way.

A friends DH teaches in a disadvantaged High school in Glasgow - his best attenders (especially at the ends of term like Christmas) are the poorest kids as they like coming to get a heat, a meal and some positive attention.

He runs subject based hide and seek games with cheap prizes and has a full class even on the last day. They had a new "wide boy" start in the class and he decided to play up a bit, before friends DH could get a word out, his behaviour was well and truly stamped on by the other kids - friends DH is "sound" :o

his view is that kids are arriving into high school more poorly prepared than they used to be. he set a basic test with his new S1s last year to try to evaluate where his starting point was and the vast majority did very very poorly :(

When ds was in P3, I had to go into the school and complain that ds was getting bored in Maths. (Iirc, the homework he was being given was simply writing out number bonds up to 10 ). She defended it saying that "that's what the curriculum says they're supposed to be doing" (this was before CfE) to which I retorted that she was supposed to be teaching to the child and that I knew that the whole "top" Maths group (the class divided into 3 for Number time) was bored (I knew three of the other parents and they'd had similar complaints) and that they'd done this work a year ago.

I took it up with the headteacher and she sorted it (she was/is hot on Maths and wanting to keep all kids engaged).

When a similar issue arose in P5 (on both occasions, the teachers had been new placements), the headteacher had addressed it before I even went in.

That's why free school meals for all P1s-3s makes me so angry.

Too many kids ONLY get that free meal. The portions are a disgrace. The quality of the food (especially the 'meat') is a disgrace. And as for breakfast club- £2 A DAY for two limp pieces of cold toast and watery orange juice. FFS stop paying for kids from middle class families and put that money towards children who desperately need it.

I totally agree. It's the view that treating people the same is fair that does my head in.

I think the differences really hit in secondary. That's why you get the middle class flight to the leafy suburbs. In Glasgow, our catchment secondary is dire. According to the local governments own reports, it is totally failing the middle class kids who achieve on average considerably less than the indicators would expect. About 10% of children get 5 highers A-C which is where I'd hope mine to get.

That's why we are seriously considering moving out to East Ren for secondary. I'm just not prepared to risk that the school will fail them too.

I wasn't saying we should introduce SATs, and yes, I'm very pleased that my kids have fun at school. I just sometimes feel they do too much fun stuff as opposed to formal learning, which is why I'm curious how their standards would compare to English.

I know a very bright kid who moved from P4 to year 3 (I think) in England. Even though she was at the top of her class here her mum told me that she is being more stretched academically in her new school. I get the impression that this is at the expense of the arts/sports/wellbeing aspects of her school experience.

Nulgirl - not all the Glasgow schools are that bad . At ds' Southside school in 2013, c.20% of S5s got 5 or more Highers. Can't find the results for last year, but as far as I remember, they were similar or better (I can remember the head teacher being very pleased).

I fully expect ds to get 5 good Highers next year. I acknowledge that I'm fortunate that he's bright - but he's not alone in his year

School is not at capacity or can adjust it and accepts placing requests

The whole FSM thing annoys the hell out of me. I'm SfL now and each school allocation of learning support is dependant on their FSM percentage. FSM does not automatically equal disadvantaged/poor home support/low intelligence. Almost a quarter of a century of teaching has taught me that over and over again

Iirc (don't want to use up one of my Herald articles ), the league tables refereed to in that report was the total over 2 years (S5 and S6) and doesn't include Advanced Highers (ds' school offers a wide range of Advanced Highers which didn't "count" in that league table)

Just goes to show why there are lies, damned lies and statistics

In a different version of the league table which was in the Sunday Times, ds' school came in the Top 50 Scottish Schools. (behind a pay wall, so can't link)

hiding In our area they keep changing the goalposts as to what SfL allocations are based on. So far we have had FSM, school roll, PIPS results and no doubt this year it will change again.

Our "exceptional needs funding" should be renamed behaviour funding as pupil with ability needs seem to get very little, but it is very strongly weighted to those with behaviour needs.

Not sure if it's the same in all areas

I also have it on good authority that some of the top rated schools (Not DSs though) actively discourage pupils from taking English & Maths in 5th year and instead have them concentrate on getting 5 As by choosing those subjects deemed to be "easier" and thus skewing the results and leaving pupils to gain subjects that they may need for uni entry in 6th year.

I'd say my job is becoming more and more about supporting teachers/building capacity/dealing with pupils with SEBD (social emotional or behavioural disorders) rather than academic issues such as dyslexia/dyscalculia.

With regards to question six- the annual pupil survey undertaken by the local councils will give you a really good overview. I read Fifes for work a couple of weeks ago and 69% of pupils reported as being happy at secondary level. I think this was comparable to the Scotland wide figure. Apparently the education department thought this wasn't too bad, but I personally think a third of pupils being unhappy is highly worrying.

That's definitely not the case at ds' school either Magnum : they set great store by ensuring a good range the "right" Highers for whatever the pupil wants to do ( including both English and Maths together) are passed in a single sitting in S5.

That way, they have a better chance of getting unconditionals in S6 although that has its own perils in S6 due to the incentive to study being diminished

Not saying everyone does that, but that's definitely the expectation.