’Ultimatum’ proposals / engagements - do they work out?

I know somebody who has done this, wedding imminent. I've got such bad vibes about it all.

@PaintedEgg
I suppose i don't look at it is an ultimatum - he held all the cards - could have said no that's not where I feel our relationship is heading and not proposed. I just made it clear of the consequences of that - that I was the type of girl you married not string along for decades with the promise of something

You have to really know your partner - I knew mine was a Peter Pan character and for him marriage absolutely made him better off as I was the much stronger person financially (as I know to my cost now we are divorcing). I offered stability love respect support in all ways. To put it bluntly I was a catch - for him - I know that sounds big headed but it's the truth when you look at basic facts on paper. I wasn't prepared to support someone financially without the stability for me of being married and it was important since he wanted children as well. Marriage for him he had everything to gain and nothing to lose

@isthistheendtakeabreath you effectively told him you would leave him knowing he was somewhat financially dependent on you...it was an ultimatum, "marry me or i will leave and take my money with me". Sure, his mistake for agreeing, but it was an ultimatum.

@PaintedEgg
Not really. He wasn't financially dependent on me at all in the early years of our relationship - certainly not before we got married - I earnt more - but not by much at that time but my career had significantly more potential long term - we are talking over decades here

So it was a case of - you either see us getting married one day - or you don't. And by the way I won't wait ten years for a proposal. At least he knew where I stood and the principles I wasn't prepared to sacrifice - like being married before children. That was non negotiable. Had he said he had a fundamental objection to marriage of any kind (whether to or or anyone else) then yes I would have ultimately ended things

Why should I have bound myself to him financially like buy a house together or have kids with him without having the one display of commitment back that I asked for and that was important to me (and that would only benefit him - the higher earner is always much more vulnerable going into a marriage - MN loves to tell posters to make sure they get married to give themselves security)

Do I think we would have married had I not made it clear what I expected from a committed and loving relationship? No. But he could have walked away at any time

I know few men who were "lukewarm" about marriage to their long term partners and the pretty much fell to their knee asking a different person to marry them. in the end it wasn't that they didn't care for getting married, they just didn't care for getting married to that person they didn't marry.

Totally agree with this. I’ve seen this happen so many times too.

Why does everyone harp on about marriage being this "commitment"?? At any given point, in England after a year if legal marriage, you can divorce (without needing the other person's approval). You can and will leave if the marriage is no longer suiting your needs. You cannot uphold someone'a feelings via marriage - if they no longer want you, they will be out. It's like trying to shoehorn something and lock it down with marriage.

@isthistheendtakeabreath I am not saying that telling him you expectations, but it was an ultimatum nonetheless. Obviously I don't know how the conversation went and if you knew what his attitude towards marriage was before he was given as "either / or" choice, but you've said that he has told you he "blamed you" for getting married so it doesn't sound like he was ever on board.

If someone wants to get married they will say so - they won't need to be threatened by leaving and snarky told they'll struggle to find a better deal. You've made him choose and now you sound bitter that he regretted that choice

You cannot uphold someone'a feelings via marriage - if they no longer want you, they will be out.

True. But you can’t just walk away without a legally mandated discussion about finances, who lives in the marital home, how the children will be cared for. Without marriage, you have the same status as a flat mate.

I think it's the fact that refusal to take this commitment, however binding one perceives marriage to be, can be an indicator of how invested someone is in a relationship.

From my own perspective, as someone who has been previously married and divorced, then remarried, I see the difference between thinking of benefits of being married from legal standpoint and thinking about it from purely romantic, emotional perspective.

Looking back I didn't care for my first marriage, we've been together for years, "it was time, something, something, legality". On the day on my wedding I've told someone who has asked me that it was simply to sort out legal standing of a relationship should we wish to buy a house etc.

On my second wedding I was buzzing with joy because I was about to marry man I deeply loved. I was literally proud to be his wife and couldn't stop myself from kissing his face and marvelling at my wedding band. Corny, yes - but to me that was the difference between getting married "because reasons" and getting married because you love someone.

" Without marriage, you have the same status as a flat mate."

Not if you have made sensible legal arrangements for yourself and your children. Like a grown up.

While we were able to get stuff like finances, pensions sorted so they would go to each other, the NHS weren't having any of it when it came to my partner being my next of kin. We weren't married, so they would have only dealt with parents who were legally next of kin, in a situation where I couldn't make my own decisions.

"the NHS weren't having any of it when it came to my partner being my next of kin."
I am so sorry that happened to you-it must have been awful. But that isn't how they are supposed to operate, and I do hope they don't any more.

the NHS weren't having any of it when it came to my partner being my next of kin

I was coming back to make this point. A friend of a friend has this problem; they’d made wills so that his partner inherited the house when he died, but it was all very difficult in the eventuality. Like many MIL/DIL relationships (just look at the threads on here!), his mother and his girlfriend didn’t always get on brilliantly and when he was in hospital at the end, his mother insisted on being next of kin. And there wasn’t much anyone else could do about that. And it turned out that some of the financial arrangements they had in place weren’t watertight, so some assets the partner felt were hers ended up going to his parents. I’m pretty sure there ended up being a small IHT bill as well, which wasn’t disastrous for her but was galling.

I gave an ultimatum.

DH and I had talked about marriage and he kept saying he wanted to marry me but just wasn’t ready yet. I was getting closer to thirty and we’d been together a few years so I got to the point where I just wasn’t waiting any longer. So one day I decided enough was enough and collected all of the stuff he’d gradually accumulated at my flat, put in a bin bag and left it by the front door. Next time he came over I told him we were splitting up, I was fed up of his dithering and wasn’t waiting anymore. He took it badly and burst into tears on my doorstep. I gave him six months to propose or we were done. I reminded him after five months that he only had a month left, he assured me it was in hand. He proposed on the very last day. No romantic proposal or anything, he just knew he’d run out of time.

We’re still (happily) married fifteen years and three kids later but I do wish he hadn’t been such a twat about it.

I personally would find it kind of odd and suspicious that my partner would rather go through separate processes of sorting out the finances (with an added risk that some of it can be undermined) than to simply get married

All that effort to just avoid being married...

How sad he had to be cajoled. And then realised that dating is no fun at all past 25 so he stuck around.

I only knew of two of my friends who did the ultimatum thing.

The first was desperate to have kids but wouldn't do it outside of marriage. She didn't get the response she hoped for and as it was his house she had to move out. It came as quite a shock to have to find somewhere to live and pay her own bills.

It sorted worked with my other friend and they got married 12 months later but after a few years of holding down a job he absolutely hated ( SHO ) he confessed to me that he'd only got married out of fear of losing her and that feeling had long gone. The problem was they had two kids and he couldn't afford to get divorced without embracing poverty so he just put his head down and go on with it. That was until the youngest left school. Shortly after that, he left taking everything he owned and without leaving a trace he'd ever lived there.

She never saw or heard from him again.

Totally shocked by this she paid ( or her parents did ) a private investigator to try and track him down but they couldn't find head nor tail of him. They were surprised by this, as apparently, it's very difficult to totally disappear as he had done and that he must have been planning it for some time, years probably. Their conclusion was that he was no longer resident in this country.

Both got married relatively shortly afterwards so I guess it worked out eventually. Maybe.

I agree with you.

@Jackienory the second story is really sad for both of them. I cannot imagine how miserable this marriage must have been before he left if he literally bolted and was gone before the door could fully close behind him

@karmakameleon

I gave him six months to propose or we were done. I reminded him after five months that he only had a month left, he assured me it was in hand. He proposed on the very last day.

God he waited until the very last day. To what? Make a point about how badly he didn't want to do it? To make himself feel as in control of the situation as possible? To punish you for the timeframe?

I can't imagine wanting to accept a proposal from someone who waited until the very last day to do it in those circumstances. It feels like something a selfish person with a bit of a nasty streak would do tbh.

@karmakameleon I have to ask but please don't take offence and just ignore this post if is taking it too far

How did your ego take it? My immediate thought was that if I had to remind someone they they supposed to marry me my self-esteem would have never recovered. Like there must be other people out there who would actually want to get married and wouldn't need to be begged, blackmailed and reminded.

So he took it the wire - despite his tears.
He wanted to cause you distress - what a w*nker.
Is he still like that ?

@PaintedEgg can you not understand that some people just don't want to be married?

I’m sure each situation is different but I know one couple like this. The woman grew tired of waiting for a proposal and pretty much insisted they get married, while the man would have been happy to carry on as they were. They had a child already at the time. They did get married and and have since had another child. Even within months of the wedding, friend was telling me it didn’t feel like it ‘counted’ because she had had to pretty much force him into it. She was resentful that he hadn’t proposed to her. She had got what she wanted but it turned out not to be what she really wanted.

15 or so years on, all is not rosy. They’re still together but might as well not be. I don’t speak to the husband about it so not sure how he feels, but my friend is very unhappy. She talks about him in very bitter and unpleasant terms. I don’t think she likes him, let alone loves him, but doesn’t want to divorce or separate, mainly because of the children. I think she would have grown to dislike him anyway, whether they had married or not, but at least it might have felt easier to separate if they weren’t married.