April 2023 -"Well we took you to Stately Homes"

@Xeren - my Toxic Sister’s behaviour really ramped up when our mother died. These behaviours mirror the ones you describe – being blamed, slagged off, wild accusations and lies. It’s part of their modus operandi and there’s nothing you can do about it.

All you can do is to remind yourself that people who really know you will be taking it all with a pinch of salt and will know that it’s not coming from you. But more important is that you steel yourself and decide not to care what other people think.

I also thought that if I went NC that the abuse would eventually stop, but no. If anything, it has given them carte blanche to continue the behaviour with total impunity. I say “them” because I include my arsehole BIL who has always been a shit-stirrer.

Don’t worry about the inheritance issue. There’s nothing you can do about that either. And I would bet you my last 50p that she won't take you to court because it’s expensive and pointless and she would lose.

She will always be hostile and angry because that’s the kind of person she is.

Stay NC, move on with your life, and remember to keep in touch with yourself and continue your healing process.

Glad to hear you’re feeling a bit better @Scyla – it’s all onwards and upwards from here.

Yes @Allofithappeningagain I do. I can't relate to it at all. Often very little enjoyment for me.

@Allofithappeningagain what is it that you dislike? How do you feel it affects you?

This is it! I can't relate to it and detracts from enjoying whatever it is. I'm guessing it doesn't lessen with time :-/

I think it's sadness? A feeling of having missed out on something that so many other people have had? Although, reading this thread so many of us in so many ways haven't had the mother/father etc that children should have had. I look at my small toddler and think - I'm going to give you the safety and the tools to be a strong, happy person and be there when you need me, be there if you want me, and cheer you on when you don't need or want me but are being your own independent person. And it seems SO obvious that this is what should happen (I don't know, maybe I've now got a warped view of parenting in a different way!) that I'm shocked? my mother did not parent me this way.

I think I read and watch TV to escape for a bit and then something like this comes up and BOOM I'm thinking about it all again,🙄

This is not going to be a short post but please stay with me!

My elderly father died a few weeks ago and that’s left us to support our mum who is in her early 80’s but very fit and well.

I moved about an hour away 25 yrs ago. This moved saved me as I was struggling with lots of MH issues at the time due to sexual abuse at the hands of my maternal grandfather.

My mum is a very odd person. We grew up in a household where her threats of her killing herself if we didn't do as she said were frequent and her range of punishments were wait till your father comes home, he smack us hard till we cried and then she'd cuddle and comfort us, extended silent treatments and a stronger enforcement of her already strict rules. She never played with us at all. She cooked and cleaned whilst constantly singing or talking to herself.

My biggest problem, however, was when she (and the rest of my family) denied that my grandfather had done anything wrong (further deepening my trauma) and to placate her a paedophile was kept in the family. After I moved away he did something to my little niece whilst in her care and again there were no consequences other than forbidding my mum to allow him near her again.

Now my dad had gone and she is lonely she expects everyone to take turns staying with her as she point blank refuses to stay alone. She’s a very nervous woman and never spent a night on her own. We have all been accommodating her in this for the last 5 weeks including me despite my conflicting feelings towards her, her emotional blackmailing and the fact I have a back injury which makes driving painful and difficult.

How can I begin to handle the guilt If I don’t help her? As my fog is lifting I am struggling so much to be in her company and feel so utterly conflicted. The death of my father, who was also her enabler but equally could be a voice of reason, has felt like I have lost both parents as once. I’m a good person and want to do the right thing and don’t want to dump my share of care for her to my siblings who have their own stresses and problems too.

This is a very complex situation and the above illustration is just the tip of a very painful iceberg.

Your DM having someone stay constantly is not sustainable long term.
Uncomfortable though it might be, the conversion has to be had.
Adding in the perfectly understandable resentment you must feel about the abuse being ignored, you need to do what's right for you and your mental health.
She made decisions that suited her, you now need to do the same. 💐

@Patchedupwithpaper - take some time to consider that you do not have to justify your decision. (You talk about emotional blackmail and a back injury as though you need justifiable reasons for your decision process.)

You do not owe your mother anything.
She does not get to decide how you spend your time.

When you create and enforce boundaries within a dysfunctional family dynamic, things will always kick off. There's nothing you can do about this.

Had she been a better mother you might feel differently, but this is the reality of the here and now. Practice saying no.

Whatever your siblings decide is up to them. Your decisions are your own.

Thanks all for this thread which has brought me a lot of comfort as I return from a "holiday" with my histrionic/narcissistic mother. She lives a 2 hour flight away and although I've been doing low contact for the last 10 years (since the penny dropped that I was part of a dysfunctional triangle that I was never going to fix, but just had to step out of it to stop playing the mediator/bully/victim). But I now have 2 girls aged 1 and 3 and wondering whether I am obliged to have contact with her for their sake. My very lovely DH says that continuing contact won’t harm them as they will have plenty of functioning role models and will be able to see the crazy behaviour for what it is, but it took me 31 years for the penny to drop, so I am just not so sure. We ensured a 20 minute rage rant to the airport where she said so many hurtful things to me whilst we were trapped in her car with no escape. My littlest was asleep but the toddler was clearly distressed at all the shouting that she is just not used to as we try to have a calm and loving home. I have been replaying that outburst for the last 24 hours and I am an intelligent independent woman, I don't want my girls having to suffer the same confusion/anxiety. Any advice welcome.

*endured

Why put yourself and your children through that? What do you/they gain from it?

@Frazzledgoat Unless your DH comes from an abusive family he will not understand what it is like.

You say your child was distressed in the car just listening to her rage..so this child is already being a victim of your mother's behaviour. She did not hold herself back, knowing that there are children in the car, did she? There is your answer. She will harm your children. She abuses you, your children witness the impact on you, they witness her abusive behaviour even at such a young age and she could not give a damn. The more boundaries you set, the more she will escalate, i.e. the more she will use your children to harm you (and them).

So no, I would not let my children have access to her. What good can come from it for them? Abusers don't change just because grandchildren come along. Your DH needs to put you first and he needs to believe you when you say how abusive your upbringing was. He needs to educate himself on what abuse is and what it does to people - then he may be allowed an opinion. This isn't the case of 'granny gets in a mood sometimes'. Which father would risk exposing his children to abuse if he understood what it actually is and how it harms others? Do your children a favour and show them that you only allow reasonable people into your lives.

Thanks Twatalert and AttilaTheMeerkat - your support has literally brought me to tears. I don't want my girls being programmed to please and feed narcissistic people. Reading all the recommended reading on this thread - it is clear that I have a bit of work to do to give me the courage to go NC.

@Frazzledgoat I'm glad I could give you support, sister! NC is incredibly hard & and I have not managed it myself. I do not have children, but I see other children in the 'family' being exposed to their oh so loving narcissistic grandmother and it breaks my heart. Literally. Because they are being abused in plain sight and I can do NOTHING to stop it.

Check iamzoelouisee on tiktok - the lady had a very abusive upbringing and became a therapist herself. She recently became a mum and talks about how she navigates the relationship with her parents and her baby. She expects having to go NC (now only has contact 1-2 times a year I think) before the child can be weaponised/abused as well.

@Frazzledgoat I agree with Twatalert and Attila. What's more, you're best to bring that axe down now, while your girls are little. It will become their normal - that they don't see your mother. I also think it's especially important because your children are girls. They are (in my humble opinion) especially susceptible to emotional manipulation. Something to do with sexist bias, but that's my experience anyway.

In years to come, when they start asking questions, I would be honest in an age-appropriate way.

Sorry for this very long post. I’ve been planning to ask for help on here for a while but I suppose I didn’t want to keep talking about things. It’s been written over the period of a week so it may be disjointed especially as today has been the day from hell! I was going to say that I know that my mum was/is not as bad as a lot of the mothers on here but I’m beginning to have my doubts about that! I was looked after very well practically, I was taken on holiday every year and we went on many days out. My mum had a lot of energy and was able to do a very busy full time job and still take me out.

I’m pretty sure that she has borderline personality disorder but it’s been kept in check by my dad (who died two years ago). My dad was a really lovely man but he did enable her and take her side. I think he tried his best under difficult circumstances and I suppose he didn’t understand what he was dealing with but he should have stood up for me more. Anyway, here are a few things that have happened…

She’s very proud of the fact that she can keep a secret. This means that until I was about ten I didn’t know that my older siblings had a different dad. When their dad arrived back on the scene (taking over from my dad at sister 2’s wedding and winning her over) I was still not told anything. I was left to piece everything together myself. I still remember sister 2 being told to shush when she told me that my grandad wasn’t her grandad. Everything seemed to be shameful and not talked about.

Sister 2 is the scapegoat (although I think that I now have that role). She was a very unpleasant person but it’s difficult to know how much of this has been caused by our mum. Of course she constantly insulted me and sister 1 because we were more favoured, sister 1 being the golden child and very successful, and me being the baby. My brother got away lightly, being a man (I suppose and naturally being low contact). If sister 2 is even mentioned, my mum has one of her ‘episodes’ where she either storms off, has a tantrum or sulks. Sister 2 has many times gone NC or LC. She’ll be 60 this year and she’s still being blamed for the things she did at 20. My mum will even talk about my sister’s anorexia very accusingly as if she was not eating to spite her. Last year, I was somehow persuaded by my mum to cut contact with sister 2 and I regret this.

She helped a lot when my children were little but tended to cause chaos. I wanted her help because I was really struggling (I’m autistic with two autistic children), but I was constantly trying to sort out arguments between her and DS1. She’s an exceptionally irritating person, constantly asking the most ridiculous questions and baiting people into arguments and DS1 would become annoyed and be a bit rude. Then I’d be told to tell him off but I couldn’t really because his reaction was totally understandable.

She would constantly criticise my parenting and would bring round huge bars of chocolate and tell my kids to ask me if they could have some. Then become angry with me when I asked her not to do this. She’s always acted as if I’m obsessed with routine and diet (I had a healthy concern), and that they should be allowed a treat occasionally (they had many). She acted as if she was rescuing them from my tyrannical regime! One day they both arrived at my door and before they even got inside they told me how upset they were that I was teaching my son to feed himself. Bear in mind that I wasn’t leaving him to starve…just trying to get him to hold a spoon and then taking over if he was struggling. It was just this barrage of criticism and I just grabbed my son, put him in his buggy and fled from my own house!

She was a nightmare when I separated from my ex husband. She once walked into my house and said dramatically “Your dad just said to me ‘Those poor children!’”. (She often pretends that someone else has said the thing that she wants to say.) She used to tell me constantly that I had no idea how awful my divorce was for her. I was driven to their house in silence at one point like it was the most shameful thing anyone had ever done. Neither of them once told me that everything would be ok or gave me a hug. She even said ‘Why don’t you wait until the boys are older so that they can choose who they live with’. My exH is a mid-range narcissist but I didn’t realise so I took on all the blame and guilt of the divorce.

She often cries and storms off and in the past, I’ve followed her in the car telling her to get in. Often this would happen when my children were present. Or she’d shout ‘Come on Len’ at my dad and make him take her home. Now my dad isn’t here, and she’s elderly and she’s still doing this even though she often struggles to walk. I have told her that if she does this I will not be held responsible if she falls and I will not be following her. She always manages to leave me feeling like a terrible person. And to an outsider, who didn’t know her well, I’m sure I would look like a terrible person.

Now, here’s the really tricky part. Eight years ago she moved 4 hours away so that sister 1 could look after her and my dad as they got older. She admitted a couple of years after that she’d made the decision when I was being horrible. I don’t think my dad wanted to go because much as he loved sister 1 and my brother, I was his only biological daughter and we were very similar in personality. Anyway, about a year after they moved, sister 1 died quite suddenly. Then two years ago my dad died and she was left alone, with just my brother in law. She has friends/acquaintances and I’ve noticed that she acts fairly normal with them.

Well you may have guessed where this is heading, DS2 and I have now moved in with her and I know that it was madness but I felt that I didn’t have a choice. With all this chaos and the awful fatigue it has all caused, I have been unable to work and my tax credits and maintenance will stop in one month. Somehow I look really healthy and young but I’m disabled a lot of the time with migraines and fatigue. I’m currently ok because I have some money from an investment but that’s got to last me for the rest of my life and it isn’t enough to be able to buy even the smallest flat in my quite cheap area. She provokes me constantly and I try not to take the bait but it’s not easy now I’m living here. But she seems to genuinely care about me. She’s even left me her house (although this was instigated by my brother who doesn't need the money and very very kindly said that I could have his share). I think she knows that her behaviour makes me feel ill and she seems to feel guilty about this but continues regardless. She seems to want everyone to be happy but she thinks that she can engineer this herself by manipulating everyone (and often she will deliberately sabotage relationships and I don’t understand this contradiction). She doesn’t have the awareness or insight to realise that she’s completely transparent and that we don’t want to be controlled by her. I already have her voice in my head to the point that I don’t even need to speak to her because I know what her response will be to every single thing I say. I often hardly speak to her because I’ve already run through the whole conversation in my head and I can’t think of anything to say that won’t illicit an irritatingly predictable reply. She criticises and judges me constantly and has a problem with me spending my own money. She keeps telling me that she’s so frugal because she’s saving money for me and I don’t do the same. The other day she stormed out of Lidl because I wanted to buy a plant! (I didn’t chase her and I bought three plant and took it in when she wasn’t looking!). I mean, I have no life at all so I think I deserve a few treats.

I don’t really know what I’m going to do in the future. Right now I can hide upstairs a lot of the time and say that I’m working (I do a bit of online admin but that isn’t really happening because I’m constantly upset) and I can go to the gym. When she’s angry she shouts that she doesn’t think I’ll be able to care for her. She says this very accusingly and after one of her tantrums when the last thing I feel like doing is caring for her. She’s right though - my health is too fragile for all this drama and having to be with her all the time would destroy me. But I’m stuck. It sounds mercenary but if I don’t care for her, I will potentially lose the house. I’m not bothered for myself but through all this, I’ve managed to keep things stable for DS2 (DS1 lives with his dad but that’s another very long story) and I would like to continue to do this. He’s off to uni in September though. My dream has for many years been to buy a camper van and travel around the uk with my dogs but now I’m stuck. I feel so lonely and isolated. I could rent privately but my money would then be gone in a few years and it’s likely my mum will have to go into a home because I’m at my wit’s end. I have two supportive friends but unsurprisingly I haven’t yet made any friends in my new area.

Anyway thanks for listening🙂

Thanks @Sicario will check the TikTok out.

@Trappedwitheviledna I am so sorry about what you are going through. I have no advice I am afraid. Look after yourself. Sending love and support.

@Trappedwitheviledna Don't make the mistake of comparing the 'severity' of abuse. Abuse is abuse and the narrative that our case isn't nearly as bad as someone else's just helps the abuser to keep doing what they are doing.

Your upbringing sounds horrible and not one by a loving mother that takes accountability for her actions. It is hard to believe that our own mothers would be so terrible to us, because it is not what nature intended, but you seem to suffer a great deal to the extent you somehow felt you had to move in with her to help her in told age. As you say it is madness. I believe something like this should happen out of love to another person - I can see why people do it if they had lifelong support from loving parents and a mutually respectful relationship. But in your case you mother just seems to keep up her spiel and maybe there was an expectation of 'that's just what you do when your parents get old'.

You may have read on here that many here have no intention of providing care for their parents. Simply because they weren't cared for as children and because the abuse meant love never had the chance to grow. You are most likely dealing with some guilt, which made you move in with her and now you are stuck.

You need to somehow fully understand what she has done to you and how it has affected you and what you missed out on because of it and then it will be much easier to say hasta la vista mother. Because you will then just care about making your own life as pleasant as possible without these people.

I would give an arm and a leg to care for my parents one day if it meant they would have been emotionally regulated people with a degree of accountability - because it would mean I could and would want to spend time with people that are so dear to me and I would love to do things for them. But typing this is complete fiction and it seems like from someone else's life. They not only neglected me but actively abused me. They caused irreparable damage, which has meant my prospects in life have been greatly compromised and I am still working to heal from at least some of the BS - have done for decades. I am not going to give up any peace I have gained to care for them one day & I suggest you work towards putting yourself first. I'm sorry, but it will be hard and it may not be possible to do on your own.

Thanks❤️ @Frazzledgoat. You take care too x

Thank you @Twatalert ❤️. I honestly don’t know if I feel guilt. I do seem to be very enmeshed with her because I’ve needed her ‘help’ with my DCs. I’ve always spent a lot of time with her when we’ve lived in the same town. I have stopped trying to change her and I’ve accepted that I’ll never have the mum I needed. I’m sorry you had such an awful time…I agree that it would be a pleasure to look after a loving parent.

I’m so upset today because my DS seems so unhappy. He doesn’t understand the situation because she’s nice to him. He’s saying that I should apologise for losing my temper last night (when both my dogs had a stomach bug and I tripped over the vacuum cleaner because she’s so stingy she won’t let me put a light on overnight without a huge argument!), but I know that if I do, my mum will think I’m apologising for the other incidents like me daring to buy a plant. To be honest, if it wasn’t for him I don’t think I’d be living here. I put his emotions before my own and apparently this way of thinking plays a big part in illness. I don’t know how to leave this situation without upsetting DS and the feeling of being trapped is awful. It’s the same way I felt when I was in a relationship with an exBF (who was diagnosed with bpd about 3 years into our relationship). Oh I’m not trying to say that everyone with bpd is like this btw so I apologise if I’m causing offence to anyone. My exBF had a history of DV which I didn’t know about straight away. I certainly had traits of it myself until about ten years ago when I started some serious soul searching.

@Trappedwitheviledna I don't know how old your DS is and it doesn't really matter, but what you describe is typical. She's abusing you and being nice to him (on the surface - what she does to him is still abuse he just can't see it because it's so hidden) and so she's controlling both of you and you are now worried about upsetting your son.

I can see why you don't know what to do and how to get out of it (again, signs of abuse or leaving wouldn't be that hard) but can you afford to see a therapist to help you feel and move through this?

@Trappedwitheviledna please don't minimise what you have experienced from your mother.

You have done some soul searching as you say, but you are majorly caught up in this cluster fuck. In my experience, nobody goes to therapy and after a while they realise they weren't actually abused or the abuse wasn't so bad. Therapy just helps you increase the understanding of what happened to you and often the depth of the abuse turns out to be much more than one realised initially..

Thank you@Twatalert. I’ve put him in this situation that I can’t really explain to him because he doesn’t understand and he hates anyone arguing. He’s eighteen. I’m thinking that if I do leave, I will wait until he’s at university.

Yes I can afford a therapist…I keep putting it off because I’m always worried about ‘wasting’ money. I know it’s not a waste! I still can’t help thinking that she doesn’t realise the damage she’s causing but I know I’m quite naive.

You’re so right about my fear of leaving indicating abuse!