April 2023 -"Well we took you to Stately Homes"

@tonewbeginnings , I have had the same experience! I stopped automatically deferring to others and yes it does get you respect. It's like a muscle, you have to keep practicing until it becomes second nature. Also as your self esteem improves you naturally stand taller and make more eye contact. We're all chimps at the end of the day and searching out dominance/submission in other people.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to work with my family though. Standing up to them seems to double down their behaviour. I tried setting new boundaries with my mother and she ending up telling me if I wasn't going to orbit round her anymore not to bother. Not bothering has been the making of me!

My mother slapped my face when I told her I'd started my period. Said it was a religious tradition...

It’s been a couple of weeks since I told my mum what I thought about my childhood for the first time, and also how I have been affected in the last year. The last year I’ve had a lot of flashbacks and realisations, all triggered by my wedding where both parents were present and quite frankly, ruined my big day for me.

Since then I have been having therapy, microdosing and most recently I had six sessions of EMDR which has been amazing, so it’s been a period of learning about really how things were growing up. The mix of emotional neglect, mental abuse and sometimes physical, and just being part of a dysfunctional dynamic. Both my parents a narcissists, my Dad overtly and my Mum more covertly.

Anyway I get a typical response back. Completely undermines my suffering this last year - I told her I had been diagnosed with c-ptsd. Tells me that you can’t change your childhood and that I should rise above it. Made a dig that she didn’t pass us from pillar to post (I am guessing because we have a nanny / toddler goes to nursery a couple of mornings a week) - no we were just ignored whilst you worked Mum! Then proceeds to get back on side with divorced father whom she hates ‘we both did our best for you’ and denies any abuse or neglect happened. Then turned it around and said I was abuser because I was a difficult teenager (eg child). Then said anything beyond 18 it was my responsibility to look after myself (I tried to commit suicide, had an eating disorder and other mental health issues). Then says I will probably never see her again and that she hopes my children will understand why they only have one grand mother, this after she’s made no effort with my child.

Anyway I just needed to vent. I am not surprised by her reaction. She hasn’t ever done any self enquiry or emotional work in her life whereas I’ve been on this path for over 5 years now.

The reality is the way she acts, her values and how she views me doesn’t work for me anymore. I can’t change her. It’s up to her and at 70, there’s no chance she’ll do any self reflection or suddenly morph into a positive person who can be a good influence in my children’s lives.

We have a family event in a couple of months, and a new baby coming. I will have no family there, just lots of people from my husbands side. I will invite a few friends tho. But it feels so weird to not have anyone there from my side. I feel like a freak but I guess I just have to get comfortable with those feelings.

If anyone has any advice on what to tell family members when they ask where my family is, then I am all ears. And what to tell kids when they grow older.

I got what I wanted - no contact with all my FOO, and now I just need to process that. Also moving house next week so they won’t have my address. Freedom finally after 40 years.

@scroogemcfuckaduck , I always tell people the truth ie I don't have contact with my family for the sake of my mental health. I don't go into details, most people don't really ask and if anyone gets sniffy I see it as their problem not mine. You have to be in a strong place though to not worry about what others think/judge. Do you think you can do that?

@Sicario I had much the same experience...I got married when I'd just turned 21, to get away from my parents more than anything. Found out a week after my wedding that no only had my so-called 'good Catholic' mother been living with my father for 6 months before they married, she was also 3 months pregnant with my older brother when they did...

As the film goes, my mother 'chose poorly'...my father had lied about his age, he was 5 years younger than my mother and she only found out when they went to marry...he turned 20 the day after my older brother was born. He'd never wanted children in the first place, my mother had told him she couldn't have children (based on nothing more than a 'feeling')...she was knocked up within 3 months. My father finally got around to having a vasectomy when my younger brother was born...

They both hated being parents and were shit at it. It was a constant race for the bottom...to this day my mother thinks she was a 'good' parent because we were fed and had a roof over our head...zero understand that that is the bare minimum a parent should do. No excuse of no money etc, my father earnt a lot of money (to the point that during my teens we had servants) and my mother stayed at home until the day my father left her (3 days after my wedding).

Both are very selfish narcissist. I've been no contact with my father for over 30 years now (I'm 55) and very low contact with my mother for 25 years...I deliberately live on the other side of the world from her. I've not had children of my own, and neither have my brothers.

BBC Radio 4 Woman's Hour Narcissistic Mothers Series - I'm not sure if this has already been mentioned but wanted to add a link in case anyone was interested / might find it useful. There are several interviews with daughters of narcissistic mothers, one with a mother who has been called narcissistic (and probably is) and, most recently, one with two psychologists whose expertise is this area (inc Helen Villiers from the In Sight podcast):
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001p1px

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/1yQs3vM2HRN0w7HxhyBMSnc/for-40-years-i-thought-it-was-my-fault-coming-to-terms-with-our-narcissistic-mother

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/3PTjgZtln8355D8xZ6TWrBg/i-felt-like-i-d-been-punched-why-does-my-daughter-think-i-m-a-narcissist

@drinkingteaslowly I found all 3 articles (I'm deaf so can't listen to podcasts) on that link about narcissistic mothers fascinating...felt sorry for both Louise and Charlotte. Interesting about how Louise saw their mother in a more positive light...because she did what her mother wanted and dropped all contact with their father when the parents split...as Louise put it 'she took the easy path' - along with sharing the same first name, I also did the same as Louise when my parents split, when I was just 21. My mother demanded that both myself and my two brothers had nothing more to do with my father...we were being 'disloyal' to her if we did.

That was over 30 years ago, it's only since I've been diagnosed with C-PTSD and had both psychiatric and psychological therapy that I've fully realised just how fucking shit my childhood actually was. I found it embarrassing to admit that to anyone for a very long time...that it was somehow my fault that my parents were both selfish narcissists that ALWAYS put themselves first. My mother had no right to demand what she did...her marriage should have been held separately from her children's relationship with their father. I have a feeling in the last few years that my older brother has got back in touch with him - good for him if he has. I haven't, because frankly I'm sick to death of the stress that any interaction with either of them brings.

I also find Dr Ramani on YouTube very helpful, particularly this one:

Super interesting reads.

Tbh I found the mum seemed to be ok, she had the capacity to self reflect and apologise, and seemed to accept what her daughter had said and see where she was going wrong. Obv she was very self centred when she was a younger, which she seemed to blame on her husband at the time, and clearly this had caused damage to her daughter.

I just think most narcs have no appetite for self enquiry or self reflection, they cannot say sorry, they shift blame and they are very jaded and bitter whenever they are pulled up on their behaviour. This didn't seem to be the case with this woman but it could be just an elaborate manipulation

Hi @scroogemcfuckaduck Yes I know what you mean. She doesn't come across too badly in the interview writeup. The full audio interview with her (voiced by an actor) is here:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001mlmk
Listening to that, I oscillated between thinking she was ok and fairly self-aware to not so... but that could be to do with the actor's interpretation too.
I though the interview in this episode with a woman wanting to parent differently to her narcissistic mother, and her husband, was also really insightful:
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001np4v

Hi @FreeRider , thanks so much for the Dr Ramani recommend. Will look forward to watching. I agree that Charlotte and Louise's different perspectives were interesting. I'm an only child but I can recognise the demand for loyalty and inability to separate relationships and see and value them from others' perspectives. I have had step families and once they were out of my mother's life I would have been seen as disloyal to get in touch with them. The demand for loyalty I realise now is so toxic and sort of indoctrinating. I felt physically sick saying or doing anything against my mother for so long, as though that would make me cruel to her, when in fact all I'd have been sharing was the truth that she was cruel to me.
I spent a long time talking up my childhood and, outwardly at least, looking at the good points - and like you have experienced embarrassment around it. It sounds like your therapy has been really insightful.. I have only had short term therapy some years ago but having recently gone no contact (not first attempt) I'm looking to find some therapeutic support for this.

Hello all, haven’t posted for a little while. Things have moved on pretty quickly, after me putting a welfare social services check on my mum (she was furious with me) it transpires that they are going to move her to a smaller flat in a local town.
She has phoned and told my husband she is never speaking to me again.
I feel like it’s history repeating itself. She had an awful relationship with her mum and now we are doing the same.
I am so done with her, years of guilt and pretty much nasty behaviour from her, always some drama. Anything that was planned that was nice, parties, weddings, she would make it all about her, ruining it with her drinking.
I feel relieved that she is going to a smaller, more manageable property, god knows how she is going to move as all the crap she will have to sort through (hoarding and really dirty/unclean environment). She is now infirm and not able to walk far.
Sorry to dump all this out, I feel that I am damned if I didn’t do anything.
i feel better for writing this down.

@tonewbeginnings going over the messages everyone has written about their mothers reaction to coming on period

And it made me think of my own. I remember my mum sitting me down and saying that some daughters don't tell their mums and I'm not to do that, I should tell her. I am guessing this was her thing she thought she could do differently from her own narc mother.

I remember coming on period and it being dinner time. She stopped cooking the dinner, turned the oven off, and was actually very present for me, for the first time in years and years. And took me down to the pharmacy to get some pads. It was this moment, as well as when my favourite cat died, only, that we had any genuine emotional connection in my whole life I am pretty sure. Tiny morsels of being mothered. I don't think we ever spoke about my period ever again tho and I was already doing all my own washing.

Hello, I haven't posted in a while, but also wanted to join in with first period talk.

I started my period when I was 11 while we were on a caravan holiday. I'd taken the spare pad they'd given to us all at school, so I had something immediately, and then I had to tell my mother and we went to a tiny little chemist. We looked at the pads and I remember mother being angry with me for not knowing what type I wanted. And then she approached the man behind the counter and loudly told him 'oh it's my daughter's first period and we don't know what to buy' and me crouching down behind the shelves dying of shame , then being told off for 'being so silly'. Quite typical of her to take any opportunity to broadcast my private business to anyone, even a stranger, for her own or their entertainment.

I asked for a bin in the bathroom at home to dispose of used pads and she wouldn't get one. I was expected to walk downstairs with a used pad and put it in the kitchen bin every time. I used to keep a bag in my chest of drawers and when it was full of used pads, I'd sneak downstairs at midnight when everyone was asleep and bury the pads underneath all the rubbish in the kitchen bin. Poor kid, I can't imagine doing that to anyone. I want to give my little self a hug. And all of you too, we didn't deserve it.

It makes me so sad that so many of us had this bad experience of our first period and how our mothers dealt with it.

Before I started properly I had some mild spotting. I don't remember how and when my mother became aware but she asked me if I am bleeding and if so we have to put 'something' in front of 'it'. She said it in a tone she used whenever she was annoyed and by that time I was already shit scared of her that I didn't tell her anything. I denied it and hid my period for a long time. I used toilet roll and washed my underwear in the sink and dried them in my wardrobe. It was terrible. One day she found out anyway and completely lost it. I never told anyone this.

She then started buying pads for me and they were stored in her bedroom in her cupboard where she kept all sorts hygiene/body care stuff. So when I ran out I had to make the walk to her bedroom into her cupboard and I always took so much care that nobody would hear or see me. I was just so ashamed of everything to do with me. I just felt I was fundamentally wrong as a person and this extended to normal bodily functions.

It didn't have to be so hard. This was the 90s and I remember my friends being able to talk about it with their mothers and in school.

My mother was terrible about periods as well. As the only girl, I had to make damn sure neither my two brothers or my father were aware of when it was happening... I had to keep sanitary protection in my bedroom, and the pads had to be flushed down the toilet...no bins for them and I wasn't to dispose of them in the kitchen bin, either.

She babysat for her friend's teenage daughter for a week about 20 years ago...and was highly disgusted when she found out the poor girl had been hiding her used pads in her bag - because she didn't know what to do with them, there being no bin in the bathroom! To this day she still goes on about how 'disgusting' that poor girl was...

@Twatalert I had a very similar experience unfortunately.

NM told me to tell her when my periods started ‘but not in front of my friends or your father MWAHAHAHHA’.
I never told her. She never asked. She never brought me any sanitary products I just used loo roll, did my own washing in the sink and dried it on the back of the radiator in my room.

She keeps making smiling comments now about the menopause as I approach 40 - I went through it 5 years ago (following a partial hysterectomy at 30)but never told her and won’t tell her anything.

She drove me to A&E last week and deliberately went over ever speed bump fast, which made my broken leg hurt. She drove slower between the bumps. She wheeled me in a wheelchair and made out like I was a difficult patient to draw attention to herself. Kept telling people ‘don’t poke the beast’ while laughing and loving every moment. Another hideous memory.

It's bloody awful isn't it these mothers they damage us for life. I'm early 50s and it makes me so sad how much she has fucked me up. I was labelled difficult from birth. I have similar period and bra stories too and I'm left with deep shame.

She's mid eighties now and I feel it's never going to end. I'm extremely low contact, I never initiate any contact. Parents recently had a five month huff,radio silence because I pulled her up for triangulating with my uni aged DD. Weak,enabling dick of a father followed suit. It was bliss the silence, however they are coming to stay at the end of the month, in a local hotel.

My skin is crawling at the thought of seeing her, I know many of you will recognise this visceral reaction. I do grey rock but to my own emotional detriment. I have a zero tolerance for their homop/trans phobic, racist,fat phobic etc etc views. I do pull them up but often they will laugh it off which enrages me. For complex reasons my mum has something over me and I sadly can't go no contact, I wish I could

Does it ever end? When they are dead does the damage and upset linger on? Im never going to be free am I?

Also isn't it strange how siblings have different experiences and personalities. I have two sisters we all are v low contact with parents. I confessed to my middle sister that I longed for the day they passed away so I didn't have to deal with their shit. She replied that they were extremely difficult people but she didn't feel so strongly. I am the youngest of three DD and I agree with @Sicario that these women never wanted to be mother's, certainly not to us girls.

The things she has said and done to me are just vile. She continues to spout her bile at 84. I'm scared she might have ten years left in her. I feel horrific loss and grief at not having a loving,nurturing mum. It hurts so much. And it hurts so much having every single micro part of my being constantly criticised and degraded. Sorry I'm rambling. I don't often post but these threads are an immeasurable source of support and comfort for me. Love and strength to you all xxx

@WetLettuce2 it sounds horrible but I'm somehow glad I wasn't the only girl on the planet to go through this to wash my own underwear in the sink because I felt I needed to hide my period. I don't remember my thought process, just how scared I was of my mother.

Thank you Atilla for taking the time to reply to me - your advice is very much appreciated. I find your explanations of why our narc families act the way they do, very helpful in accepting their behaviour, and more importantly, giving me strength in my decision to go NC. It is hard to also be at peace with the decision without feeling the classic fear, obligation and guilt. You are right. I also found your comment to WetLettuce resonated:

"Your mother was uncaring and abusive then and remains the same now. These types are completely without empathy for other people and have also made the terrible choice not to love."

I shall remind myself of this, whenever I waiver.

Thank you to @Sicario and @drinkingteaslowly for the links to the Wome's Hour series.

@SarahC50 my own NM is in her mid 70s and I feel exactly the same as you. My skin crawls when I know I have to see her ir even talk to her on the phone.

Does it ever end? When they are dead does the damage and upset linger on? Im never going to be free am I?

This is something I think all the time. I think the response is we need to conquer that freedom ourselves. No matter how difficult and hard it is. At the moment I have her in my mind when I least expect it, her words, past experiences etc, they are intrusive thoughts.

I had cancer in the past and completely recover fortunately, and now I am aware about our own fragility and mortality. In a way is good, it reminds me we only life once. We need to live our lives finally free. I am currently listening to podcasts about dealing with narcissists which I find useful. I am too afraid of starting therapy though, but the podcasts are a step for me.

Do something you like every single day. Go for a walk and admire nature. Meet a friend for coffee. Read that book with a cup of coffee. Surrand yourself with nice positive people. This works for me. Do things for yourself and think you are the only one that can make yourself happy.

Sending you a big virtual hugh. You aren't alone xx