April 2023 -"Well we took you to Stately Homes"

@OctopusComplex Oh my, I'm sorry your post was missed. I missed it too and I also get into a fight with my inner self if mine get overlooked etc.

I see it as a symptom of trauma for me. I was completely overlooked and ignored in my family unless there was something to criticise me for. The repercussions of this I still carry through life, here, at work, anywhere.

But posting here has also meant I could write something down and get it out if there is nobody to talk to in real life. I have had some very mindful responses to many of my posts and really feel this is a safe space here. I feel understood and this little community. This outweighs the feeling of being overlooked now and I know it's in my head.

@OctopusComplex That’s so difficult. When going NC, it really is a case of zero contact. None of us gets to that decision lightly.

Your brother is being used as a “flying monkey” by your mother. He may not be aware of this. (A flying monkey is someone who is sent to do your mother’s bidding.)

I don’t know how old your son is, or whether he had a relationship with this grandmother, but if you want to cut your mother out of your life completely then I wouldn’t be accepting gifts. @HatchlingDragon is right about gifts being a currency of manipulation.

Very quickly, it's evening here, then you so much for the responses. I'll come back later.

@MsMoody I'm sorry for your experience.

It has made me think I still carry a huge amout of embarrassment about doing anything connected with puberty/being an adult.

I'm in my 40s and I find shaving my legs, buying sanitary towels, deodorant etc utterly humiliating.

I wasn't particularly shamed about that sort of stuff as a teenager but no conversations or help was ever forthcoming either. I still feel like I don't know what I'm doing.

I was however shamed about everything else! Every decision, thought, my appearance, how I live my life...

I've tried twice this year to start relationships (with men) and I've found it absolutely impossible. And terrifying. I've been since for 18 years, pretty much.

Oh @Frith2013, your last post completely resonates with me.

I was shamed for everything. I hid my period, I don't remember how long for (I was about 11 or 12) and when my mother found out I got shamed and shouted at. She really made me feel guilty that I didn't feel I could tell her. I once left a used but wrapped up sanitary pad on the bathroom counter, which I forgot to put in the bin and when my mother found it she shouted again. I felt completely stupid and I was still so young. To this day I worry that I forget to bin a pad or tampon.

I hid shaving foam and razors as an older teen as well. Basically, everything my mother couldn't deal with or talk about was my fault.

And don't get me started on relationships @Frith2013 . I honestly think I can't do romantic relationships. I'm a good friend, I think, but feel I can't be a partner.

Ah, it's crap, @Twatalert

I left a word out of the last sentence of my post. I've basically been single for 18 years.

Probably TMI but the last bloke lay back in bed and said words to the effect of "do what you like with me" and I was so paralysed with indecision and embarrassment over not knowing what to do instantly, that I had to sit down and stare into space.

N.B He didn't do this the second we met! This was after a few months.

Family members talking about visiting is enough to do this to me @learningtobe depends who, when and what their plan seems to be. I like having guests generally. Thinking about all the steps in having them stay with me can be overwhelming.

So the activity involved some performance work. The initial stages of which I was quite good at which I was surprised and pleased about. Then I had a conversation with someone who asked me lots of questions to me it seemed a bit of an interrogation - this style is familiar in the family I am trying to reduce contact with. I think I wasn't sure if I was being asked for genuine or judgemental reasons. Then there was a final performance element. Struggled with this partly because I was then confused.

Without saying too much think of similar to a dance class where you rehearse small steps (which went fine) then have a conversation which verges on 'do you think you should be here?/have you practised?' from a fellow participant and then trying to put all five dance step elements together at the end with other people watching.

Writing it like that no wonder I tried to dissociate myself!

Been vlc with vulnerable NM since Feb while having therapy and (aside from bouts of guilt and fear) overall I've been calmer and happier since then. Today, at her request, we spoke on the phone for the first time. As expected, she laid on the guilt ("you've done this to me, you've driven a wedge in the family") victimhood ("after everything we've been through you've chosen to do this") and attempted to undermine, belittle and shame me but I kept calm and didn't rise to any of the bait. Told her that her expectations were her expectations and that mine are different, and that I prioritise open communication and reciprocity. I pushed back on some of her accusations and stood my ground. This evening I'm finally starting to feel stronger and more hopeful for a happy life with my very supportive husband and my lovely kids, although I'm frightened of getting sucked back in when I've got this far for the first time.

Stay strong @Legomum78. I’m not sure what your therapist will advise but my experience is that pushing back doesn’t help. Firstly you enter into a debate/argument which is what they want and second it gives them fuel to gaslight you. Take care.

@Snoozinandlosin this is so true. It makes me shudder to think that I tried to stick up for myself. My mum and dad were never wrong I was mistaken. Complete waste of time.

Thank you for your comments. I've got no intention of picking up the rope, I know full well that she's not going to change and it felt empowering to (very calmly) give her my perspective. Our conversation yesterday really underlined that I am doing the best thing for me.

This group is so important to all of us to know that we're not alone. Certainly feels like it sometimes.

Delurking to say: Thank you so much Attila for continuing this thread. It does so much good for so many people otherwise feeling alone with the isolation, sadness, rage and grief that comes with dealing with their toxic families and the fallout of lc or nc if that is the road that has to be taken. You also gave me a new mantra for when the toxic guilt strikes:

Drop the rope, find hope.

So thank you for that too.

People with loving nurturing families just look baffled or uncomfortable if you mention these things to them. I have a small circle of friends IRL who know my situation and I keep discussions to just those few to save from further heartache from thoughtless comments.

I credit this thread as a virtual support group for finally giving me the courage to stand up to my controlling parents and enabling DB. Been NC with them for a few months now and reading Susan Forward’s Toxic Parents after your suggestion which has been really helpful (and is saving poor DH from my cyclical thinking out loud as I can’t afford counselling right now and I tried journalling but hit a block where I felt I just couldn’t write - too raw maybe?).

That book was an eye-opener when I realised so much I had dismissed and minimised was actually harmful. DH had been telling me for years this was not loving behaviour but controlling behaviour.
I am waking up to the fact that so many of what I thought were my painful inadequacies are simply ingrained beliefs from my years of Special Training. Both painful and liberating to realise. I am determined the generational trauma ends here as much as possible.

The flying monkeys are out in force but DH and I are united against their slander - helpful to find solidarity on here and realise it’s the common theme - I must be depressed to behave like this and or DH must be controlling me.

Ironic as I’ve never felt more sane…

Thank you all for sharing. You never know who you will help by doing so and you’ve all helped me enormously already. Here’s a🌷and a ☕️ for each of you. We have your back and you are not alone.

really sorry your going through this @runnamumma exactly how I’m currently feeling thank you for writing this message because it’s helped me feel not alone in it today 💐💖

Hi, I echo the grateful thoughts. This thread gives so much strength. Thank you xx

Today I'm processing the fact that I could never talk to my VNM about anything growing up, as she'd lose her shit, so I learned to suppress my feelings and views. While I'm learning to listen to myself for the first time, I'm also reminded of the need to communicate openly with my own teenage children. They have to feel able to talk to me about anything, good or bad.

Anyone else feel like this?

Glad that was helpful @Wild0212 and likewise sorry you are going through this. It is very painful and here we can remember our collective humanity and that though our situations may be different, there are common threads that unite us and we are not in fact alone in this.

@grizzletopsy It sounds like your VNM is still losing her shit with you when you raise things but now you’re learning to be more ‘comfortable with her discomfort’ and stand your ground. Well done. If you are worried about getting sucked back in despite VLC do you need to consider NC for the sake of yourself, your DH and DCs? It’s not for everybody and certainly not a panacea as there are other considerations with this last resort. I guess more work along the lines you’ve been doing will reveal the answer to you…

A passage from Susan Forward’s excellent book Toxic Parents stood out today and I feel applies to this thread:

‘One almost universal symptom … is a feeling of total isolation. But when you’re surrounded by people talking about feelings and experiences that sound just like yours the isolation begins to fade. Group members nurture and support you. In essence they say: “We know how it feels, we believe you, we hurt for you, we care about you, we want you to be the best you can.”

So that is my message tonight to all of you lovely people on this thread and to the unknown numbers of equally lovely people out there reading it, who might feel unable to post but this message goes for you too. You too are welcome and encouraged to join us on this difficult but important journey, even if you are a silent participant, your participation is important.

In this little corner of the internet some important healing is being done, especially in this cost of living crisis we are living in. We might not all have the resources individually for therapy but together we can create something more organic and who knows, collectively, perhaps more powerful in breaking the cycles of generational trauma on a mass scale…

So proud of Mr Monkey is his journey through therapy and dealing with his utterly vile mother aka The Hag. He’s cut down contact to taking on her hospital appointments only. He’s now talking about no contact with her. Of course, this comes with ‘what will people think?’ I’m not sure it will end up in NC, but I’m really pleased that he’s considering it and now knows it’s an option.

After ‘punishing’ me with no card or gift for my birthday last year, but remembering my mum’s (hers is the day after) oddly enough 😂 there’s a card and I suspect some £ within this year. This will be an attempt to butter me up as she realises MM isn't going to come to heel with any of the tactics (poot old lady, spite, screaming) so she's going back thtough me. Fuck that, lady, NC for you.

@MonkeyfromManchester long time lurker on (and recommender of!) this thread. You are my utter hero (also @AttilaTheMeerkat for their presence and wise counsel).

Your strength, wisdom, resolve, unfailing support for your MM, plus your sense of humour and gifted way of writing, all in the face of unremitting sh*te which must be truly horrible to endure at times, are an inspiration. You give courage and hope to others who might currently be too scared to fight back, in the way you show that it can be done, despite the relentless twuntery from the Hag involved.

You are amazing. Thank you. x

@REP22 thank you so much. I really would not have got through the shit with the Hag without this forum. I'm so, so glad I found it. I'm really glad you're here, too.

It's heartbreaking for MM to have had this awful family and the legacies are huge for him. But he's so strong now.

We got back from holiday on Tuesday and he's not done a ‘we’re back call’ as he now avoids her as much as he possibly can and as he says ‘what's the point as she's so miserable?’ She’d only ask him why he'd been in Paris. Lol.

Slave Son longs to go on a cruise to Norway, but daren't. Ludicrious and so sad, but MM now sees SS’s position as his choice. The counselling MM is having has really helped.

Just so sad to hear him say that he would have had liked kids - I've never wanted them due to my bipolar - but feels his family curtailed that.

I didn't feel upset - I understood what he meant. I think he would have met someone when he was younger if he'd had a normal mother who didn't try to own her kids and he would have had children. He has no confidence in relationships.

He would be a brilliant dad. I thank god that I didn't have a different perspective of having kids as the Hag would be an awful grandparent - she IS an awful grandparent - and she would have played games with our children.

I've told MM that he can pass on thanks for my card - I'm not dealing with her. He gets it.

@MonkeyfromManchester Thank you 💐I hear you about the kids thing. I cannot have children myself. That's OK, but I know what you mean. But you're right. Grandchildren would have been weaponised and no good could come of that.

But MM has a job helping people and he sounds like one of life's good ones. He's making a difference to people that will continue on. So even though he doesn't have any children, his influence and the work he's doing will have a positive continuation in other people's generations.

As for SS, that's also very unfortunate, but sadly sometimes you just cannot save people from themselves. I suppose he feels it's easier to bow at the Hag's cloven hooves than make his own escape, the path of least resistance etc... Very sad.

Hope the Hag-proofing of Christmas (sorry, early I know) goes well this year. You deserve to have a truly happy one. xx

Anyone thinking about Christmas yet? It's ages away but it is on my mind because I won't spend another Christmas with family and will most likely be on my own, again. The season tends to be generally difficult for me so I am already thinking of ways to lessen any pain I usually feel.

Just watched diaries of a CEO with Alex Scott. Steven Bartlett said he spent many Christmases alone (even more recent ones) because his family is dysfunctional. I knew he had a difficult upbringing but I somehow thought he'd have other people to spend it with, like friends. Found it extremely relatable that he doesn't.

@RunnaMumma ❤

@DrovemyChevvytothelevy Cheers! ❤️ right back

@MonkeyfromManchester If the Hag asks why you and MM were in Paris he needs to play her the song ‘Paris’ by the Chainsmokers - but you two are not going down together - you are on the up!

Making myself a playlist for when all these heavy emotions hit after going NC and that one is on mine…

By far and away the song getting me through this is Razorlight’s Golden Touch...

Any other playlist suggestions for leaving behind narcissistic FOO?

My own VNM is literally on tour slagging me off to all who will listen as she visits different people but as they say…

’Focus on character not reputation as character is who you truly are and reputation is just who people think you are’

And at least I know I’m protecting my kids and husband - and myself, from any more of their dangerous undermining behaviour.

Small example my VNM telling my then 2 yr old DS ‘oh dear did Mummy scare all the other children away at the park?’ Like wtf??!

Bigger example messaging DH a few weeks after DS was born when she thought he was away on a conference to say I had mental health problems and was acting irrationally just because I’d disagreed with her about something. Little did she know the conference had been cancelled and he was next to me on the sofa…

Then tried to turn MIL against me with similar tactics but unfortunately for her she picked a weekend my in laws were stating with us to send the message.

The final straw was trying to turn DS against me and use him to triangulate for information about us (We were seriously greyrocking at this point which was driving her crazy). He witnessed their full on narcissistic rage at me when I refused to do something. They refused to keep a lid on it in front of him despite my repeated requests and he has had nightmares afterwards. That’s when LC had to become NC.

@Twatalert Christmas is such a difficult one. Good idea to make a plan ahead of time. Could you volunteer with Shelter or something for a day or two to feel part of something bigger?

@Wild0212 How are you holding up?