April 2023 -"Well we took you to Stately Homes"

@Wild0212 Yes, this is what they do. I am sorry it went like that for you. Narcissists will deflect and shift blame and how dare you rock the boat and don't shut up and believe how wrong you are in all this?

It is very sad that they are turning on your partner now and I just hope they won't plant seeds of doubt about him in you.

I do not have children, but I did notice that old patterns came to the forefront again when my parent's grandchild was born. Unfortunately it was a girl, so she receives treatment not dissimilar to the one I have received. Her life would be easier had she been a boy. But this is something specific about my mother - she cannot stand other femals and males get special treatment.

Ugh. Made a mistake earlier and replied on a thread in the 'teenager' section to a woman who had a post headed 'I regret having children' or some such...massive, huge mistake. I forgot that you can't point out that having a child shouldn't be transactional and teenagers can be gits.

Christ I hate 'martyr mummies'!

@Sicario has pointed me to this thread and reading a few of the posts resonate. The patterns and behaviours seem so similar across the families! I always felt very alone in dealing with toxic family members.

@Wild0212 having children definitely worsened things for me. My eldest sibling became a grandad around the same time I had my second and I had so many alarm bells go off in my body. It’s as if my body was telling me to keep some distance. It’s taken a while to listen to it and I have decided on very minimal contact. I grew up with my siblings’ family around me and their kids are quite close in age to me. I ended up being used as a way for my sibling and their partner to make themselves and their children feel better about themselves by either putting me down or putting everything I did under extreme scrutiny. It’s like you said even if something happened where my nieces were more at fault I would get into a lot of trouble instead. If I didn’t share my toys or sweets it was pointed out to the whole family but the other way around it was no big deal. They also made it a point to minimise anything good that happened to me. I started getting panic attacks at age 20 and it took a good decade to understand my unusual childhood as a potential cause. I’m in my 40s now and the patterns are much more obvious. This same brother recently tried to drag me back into drama via the silent treatment when we’re around each other at my mums. I took the bait and asked if everything was ok. He denied that anything was wrong, claimed that nothing ever upsets him and continued with a whole bunch of criticisms about me. I can’t believe I felt for it but my mum also encouraged me to ask him, as she is always more concerned that I am a perfect daughter above anything else. The standards set on women in many families are unhealthy and unreasonable.

Yes to preferential treatment for boys. My brother was the golden child and while I'm sure that came with its own challenges, things were asked of the girls that were never asked of him. We were expected to get jobs, for example, which was a logistical nightmare living in the middle of nowhere with no public transport (and giving us lifts became another stick to beat us with).

My feeling is she was very jealous of my sister's relationship with her dad (my stepdad) and that's why my sister became the scapegoat.

I had some therapy before having children and still continue with it. I started out with weekly sessions, then fortnightly and now monthly with a few breaks in between.

But, something I struggle with as a parent is not falling into a victim mindset because of all my childhood trauma. My eldest is almost a teen and I find myself struggling to be the parent I want to be. Teenagers can be quite mean and I feel like I over react rather than accept what it’s like being a teen. My response is to back right off and perhaps this comes across as cold to my daughter.

Without having grown up with good parenting role models I feel I am always questioning what I do. Often, I am quite soft as a parent and I wonder if this is to do with wanting to be accepted combined with a fear of recking my kids lives if I am too strict (controlling!). I also find it much easier to empathise with my youngest when it comes to jealousy between my children. My eldest uses drama and achievements as her technique to keep the attention on her. The youngest uses affection, fun and jokes to keep the attention on him. Both of these are age appropriate as the older one is almost a teen and the younger is a pre-schooler. I acknowledge their antics out loud and tell them I love them both a lot - they don’t need to fight for it. Not sure if this is a good thing to do or say!…

I know I have changed their lives for the better by going low contact with my wider family though.

@thecatsmeows
I came off that thread as I was dismayed by some of the attitudes on there. In fact I find mumsnet depressing at times with the amount of threads bemoaning how terrible having kids is and expressing the sentiment that mothers would be better off without them . Indeed lots of threads saying they would not have had children if they had their lives again and labeling their kids as ungrateful.brats and vile.
I dont get it myself though I have no.illusions about how tough it can be ( 5 children here and 3 with additional needs ) . I wonder if the insidious messages about parenthood that seems to be creeping in more and more will result in more children growing up.to.have need of stately homes threads as they pick up either consciously or subconsciously that they were a regretted inconvenience.

Hello @Avocadomother and welcome to the club! It takes a long time to find the language to describe our experiences, which is one of the things I find so valuable about this thread. Some posters are able to totally hit the nail on the head.

And parenting is HARD. We all know that teenagers can be total dickheads.

The "motherhood penalty" is very real, particularly for those of us who found ourselves single parenting with absolutely no support from an abusive ex. Don't get me wrong - I adore my kids and have a fantastic relationship with them. But I also understand why so many women are now choosing not to have children and I don't blame them. It's relentless, thankless, and financially ruinous.

Having totally shit parents (including a violent and emotionally abusive mother) actually made me a pretty good parent because I was determined to be the total antithesis of the example I had been set.

My mother was a PITA but my XMiL wasn't much better.
She refused to work, even when her husband lost his job (and we suspect ended up in prison although it was claimed he was working abroad). She had 3 sons who she expected to run after her as "That's what you have children for isn't it - to look after you when you're old?"
We were all paying our own mortgages when the rates were sky high as well as a third of a mortgage on her house. She contributed absolutely nothing and expected to be chauffeured about like Lady Much all the time. We all had kids of our own but were expected to drop everything and run to her beck and call.

So I didn't have much luck although I can say that my OH's mum is absolutely lovely although now suffering from dementia. That said, we'd do anything to help her, unlike those two other selfish cows.

@RaraRachael Your ex MIL sounds a lot like my mother. She had to get a job when my father was temporarily unemployed for 6 months (he had been earning a massive salary but they both spent it as fast as he earned it, so no savings)...my mother acted like she'd been sold into white slavery, working a 20 hour week! Myself and my brothers were all in our late teens at that point, and I'd been doing all the housework for a couple of years anyway.

I know when my father left her for another woman a few years later she thought myself and my older brother would help her out financially...but like yourself, this was 30 odd years ago when mortgage interest rates were insane...even if we could have afforded it, no way on earth would my then husband have agreed! Especially as his mother had been getting up at 5am for 20 years to work as a cleaner...

@Twatalert thank you it’s such a shock at the moment. yes it’s like something sets off old dynamics again when grandchildren are born! I’m not letting them treat my children badly ever though.
How horrible that is depends on gender. Im sorry you were treated badly, are you still in contact with your mother?

@Avocadomother how have you managed to deal with it and keep seeing them do you manage to keep happy and sane? It’s horrible how they minimise your achievements. In our family it’s made out it’s because my oldest sister is sensitive.

@Wild0212 I have been LC since December. I'm still thinking through the possible fallout scenarios of going NC and there is a possibility that I'd lose my niece as my brother is warped up in all this. I'll most likely stay LC because I love my niece and think I can be a role model for her.

I'm keeping the contact very superficial. Today is mother's day in my home country. I reluctantly sent flowers as always. It's a tough day for me as my mother gets quite emotional on such days, almost like she has moments of clarity of what she's lost. Sometimes she'd say 'i wish we could all be together' etc. but she doesn't behave in a way that would allow that. It never lasts anyway and she's not once made changes to her behaviour. And that's because she doesn't see a problem with her behaviour. The problem is that I moved abroad as soon as I could and never came back as she thought I would. When I left she thought I'd only last a few months!

Hello,

not sure if I’m joining or this is just a cry for help.

Ever since I’ve been an adult I’ve had a difficult relationship with my mum in particular. I moved away to follow a career, and ever since I can only describe it as being more and more excluded. There’s a constant narrative of ‘but you moved away’ with no acceptance of my reasons.

My brother has always been favoured - mum and dad have helped him out more times than I can mention, probably far more than I know - buying a shop to give him a job, helping him buy and run a burger van, refurbished his house inc new heating bathroom kitchen (dad was a plumber).

It got more polarised when I had children, with little effort towards my dc because ‘you live too far away’. For a long time they would visit us for 2-3 days every other year, same us to them.

They blew my dads pension, home equity and got 2 loans to buy a place in Spain in the couple of years before the market there crashed. They wanted us to go in on it with them but we researched it and declined due to the risks etc. My brother is in on it although he didn’t contribute financially, and this was all also held against me.

The last time we saw them was a trip down to near them, staying in a tent. The financial situation with this place in Spain has essentially led to them living in a series of ever-smaller mobile homes, living on the profit from the last one until they move again. So not a house a family can visit. The year of the tent they didn’t try to help us find somewhere to camp, so we ended up on a bloody hilly cliff top, and it rained torrentially for 3 days. At that time they had a spare room, and a caravanette, so could easily have helped at least the kids, to get out of the rain. We ended up leaving early, which clearly annoyed mum.

About a month later she called me and lashed out at me for an hour non stop, ripping me to shreds, my husband, my kids…everything. I went NC for almost a year. But it ate me up so I got back in touch. Tried to keep it neutral and tried for boundaries.

About 3 years ago mum fell out with SIL (who had overheard mum slagging her off). Mum refused to apologise so they don’t speak. When mum was speaking to SIL, I was even more excluded and the SIL could do no wrong. For a long time I felt completely replaced as daughter and it added to the distance (but emotionally was probably healthier).

Since the fall out I’ve relaxed. Stupidly. I arranged to go visit them. I had to book accommodation as they have no room, they wanted me to stay in a friend’s B and B but she was booked up. So I found myself an AirBnB about 5 miles from their house. Mum said it was too far from them, but mumbled about it so the trip was all planned. 0530 the morning of the trip she calls me to say she doesn’t think I should come - Dad has diarrhoea. Then actually it’s the dog being ill. Then it’s Dad can’t drive you (was going to fly down but couldn’t afford a hire car as well as everything else). Then it’s ‘many things’ that make it too difficult for me to visit.

over the years there have been numerous arguments (all my fault according to her), my brother hardly bothers with me. Mum and Dad didn’t come to mine and DHs wedding - 22 years ago, again the dog and ‘other reasons’. In an argument she said they didn’t come because they thought DH was ‘after a British passport’.

Ive written things more eloquently in Relationships under ‘Cancelled trip’ - it all reads back really bland here.

in short, I feel TERRIBLY rejected and hurt. I’m consumed with it and I hate it. She’s sending me funny links via SM and I can’t even bring myself to look at them. How is this ok? What is it about me that she keeps doing this? I can’t go completely NC again, it ate me up before, but on the other hand I feel horrific this weekend and don’t know how I can move forward.

@Wild0212 it’s been terrible for my mental health and I finally decided to go LC 2 years ago.

Every-time I visited my mum pre-pandemic my brother and his family would also visit so they could enjoy handing out some backhanded comments to me to make themselves feel better.

Post pandemic I saw them all once about two years ago which was a reminder of how awful their behaviour is. My brother spent the whole time telling me how awful the people are in the city I live in (one of his favourite topics when he sees me), my sister-in-law spent the whole time bragging about her various family members that I don’t know (one of her favourite topics), their daughter walked around behind my partners back pulling faces and having a laugh with their younger daughter (both in their 30s!) - I think they thought I didn’t see this?! The younger daughter spent the whole time looking at my kids in a disgusted way and rolling her eyes anytime they said anything. I have been told by my brother that his youngest daughter doesn’t know how to converse with or be around kids and it’s not personal, since the day my eldest was born. I accepted it and thought that it’s ok not to be into kids, it’s not for everyone. Then when she became an aunt she has been super nurturing so it turns out it was personal! My eldest asked me after each family gathering why her cousin never speaks to her and blanks her when she says hello. I’m talking about a 5 year old saying hello to a 25 year old! Also, the fact that my brother claiming that his daughter isn’t being rude - somehow she’s justified in not responding because she doesn’t know what it is like to be around children, now seems horrible. He could have said nothing.
2 years ago was the first time I saw them IRL after the pandemic and it made me feel sad and angry! It also became apparent that I have been putting up with some toxic family members most of my life. Without having distance or a break from it I had little perspective on how bad it was. I’ve found their behaviour quite confusing - giving presents, making grand gestures and then a session of putting me down through targeted jokes and backhanded comments (I now realise these are traits of a narcissist).

I also recently recognised that this brother has been stirring drama between me and my sister. He has been treating her with a milder form of what he does to me. I think he could get away with more because I am so much younger than him. When she had young children there was a lot of gossip / criticism about her parenting with me behind her back. I always felt like I didn’t know what to say but I did once stand up for my nephew when he was poking fun at his weight. My sister said nothing as i think everyone just accepted his bullying. The last time I spoke to my brother he told me that I don’t visit my mum much and take care of her like my sister does. It occurred to me that he has probably been doing this to my sister too as she came out with some strange remarks and behaviour a few years ago (I think he may have been stirring things up). She apologised after this.

it’s been lovely to visit my mum without all the drama. My mother isn’t the perfect parent but I can feel and sense her good intentions which is great :)

Two years is the longest time I haven’t seen this brother and his family. I’ve been reflecting, understanding and healing a lot during this time. I want to coninue to prioritise my mental health so I will continue to maintain LC. Our paths may cross at a family event in which case I will try the grey rocking method. Which knowing him will make him lash out more.

He has already told me that I need to call him and all of his children to let them know when I visit my mother so that they can come and see me! I know he has noticed the LC from me and is angry that I can’t be easily manipulated anymore. BTW, the most ridiculous part of this is that he doesn’t live in the same city as my mother - I can’t imagine ordering him to call me every time he visits her - it’s all so bonkers 🙉

As an added complexity in my brothers relationship with me he did take on a parental role as he is decades older than me. My parents should not have allowed this as there was quite a lot of emotional abuse from him and some inappropriate comments / gestures that had sexual connotations I had bottled for years and only acknowledged recently. I question my memories but I know something doesn’t feel right and want to protect my daughter (now a teen) from whatever it is that I can’t remember or put my finger on.

@Madopause
I can relate to that ....being consumed with terrible feelings, I dont know what the answer is for you but with my own family I now put it down to them being self absorbed & not able to see me as I am, only seeing what they need me to be or what they feel I ought to be.
I hope you can find a space with some peace in it and a way to move forward🙏

@Madopause You feel rejected and hurt because you have been rejected and hurt (I feel your pain, been there). Allow yourself to feel that. But also please realise that this is not your fault.
How people are treated says more about the people treating them than the people being treated. Like me, you have come from a very damaged family. THAT IS NOT YOUR FAULT (sorry for shouting).

The hard thing is that people won't change unless they have good reason to. Your family, like mine, think they are getting along just fine thanks very much. Everyone else is the problem. For you, and me, we need to accept that we can't change other people and that we did not get the family that every innocent little child deserves. We need to grieve what we didn't get and then move on with our lives.

Staying in contact with very very dysfunctional people like this does your head no good. Their mission in life is to blame you for whatever is wrong in their miserable lives. Rather than trying to solve an issue, they will dig their heels in and blame you. This really is not normal, and it means that difficulties can never be resolved, no matter how hard you try.

I've read quite a bit about people who have gone no contact with their families (nearly 2 years in my case), then re-established contact. In every case they have regretted it. So my take from this is to get out, and stay out.

@Madopause You are on a complete hiding to nothing with your parents. I saw your other post. You have been squarely positioned as the family punch bag (scapegoat) and your mother sounds like a very angry woman who thinks it’s ok to take out her life frustrations on you. They do not view you as a person in your own right with autonomy and free-choice.

You said that trying to go NC “ate you up”, yet it is clear from your posts that any contact with them causes you nothing but heartache. Going NC is hard, but it is sometimes the only way to break the cycle and commence your own healing process. I would urge you to seek counselling and to consider whether you want to continue to maintain your part in this abusive, toxic family dynamic.

@Avocadomother I would recommend that you avoid your brother and his family at all costs. The only reason he wants to be involved when you visit your mother is so that he can bully (scapegoat) you and make himself feel superior to you. What a sad, empty little man.

My Toxic Sister and BIL used to do this to me all the time until I called them out on it one day and ejected them from my house. I said, “I don’t know why you bother coming here when it’s obvious all you want to do is slag me off, cause trouble and ruin the day.” Toxic Sister looked totally shocked that I’d called her out. To them, the slagging off and ridiculing was a game. As you say, it’s the narcissist looking for supply because they are empty inside.

@Escapingafter50years hits the nail on the head in the previous post saying: I've read quite a bit about people who have gone no contact with their families (nearly 2 years in my case), then re-established contact. In every case they have regretted it. So my take from this is to get out, and stay out. This is absolutely true.

Ten years ago, I re-established contact after a period of NC and it was a HUGE mistake. Because sure enough, the toxic shit kicked off again and this time it was even worse because Toxic Sister felt vindicated as I had been the one to get back in touch and apologise, even though I had nothing to apologise for. I was just trying to make peace after being put under pressure by other family members.

So my take from this is to get out, and stay out
I agree with this, if you go back their impulse to punish you is now even stronger, they will not do (and probably are not capable of doing) the work needed to look at themselves, acknowledge that they are punishing you and try to find out why.
It will remind buried in their unconscious and therefore out of conscious control.

"To them, the slagging off and ridiculing was a game. As you say, it’s the narcissist looking for supply because they are empty inside"

@Sicario this is exactly what's going on. I have decided to avoid them. I have self-doubt in my head sometimes about whether I may be over reacting to their behaviour, so I have written down a list of the events that bothered me the most and I go back to read them to remind myself of why I am making this choice sometimes. It is challenging to break default habits and writing + sharing things on a board could help. Feeling alone can feel awful, so thanks for reading + understanding :)

My ageing mum is classic covert narcissistic, always laying on the guilt, talking about how we never went without as kids & she gave us her undivided attention blah blah blah. She gaslights me, telling me any memories I do have never happened & she is critical of EVERYTHING I do or work done around the house etc. I don't remember having any birthday parties or celebrations as a child, even milestone ones, no activities outside of school like swimming, sports etc & I remember spending lots of time around at my friends house for sleepovers etc esp. As a mum of my own dc now I am very resentful of my mum & we have a poor relationship as I'm pushing back against her now. I know she won't change but just feel so empty & sad that I never had a loving & nurturing family 😔 Sorry not really asking anything, just wanted to vent.

Is the original poster still around? Im curious to know if the original stately homes conversation came from the DoNM forum a long time ago. May simply be coincidence, it really was a long time ago.

Ditto. 100%.

hi all - I'm after some advice / thoughts for a situation I can't change but it's making me (irrationally?) sad and angry. I believe my MIL is narcissistic, OH is an only child and she is obsessed with him, has been as long as I've known him (more than 28 years) and the older she gets the more reliant she is on him as a source of information / gossip / entertainment.
Over the years of sly digs, nitpicking, criticism and ignoring of me (which I usually ignored as I wanted to at least try to have a good relationship) the year she invited us for dinner when I was unable to walk due to an injury but then left me alone in the lounge without anything to eat or drink until OH pointed out I was there flipped a switch for me - I've gone pretty much LC with her.
OH visits every week, if he doesn't visit her she visits us or cries about not seeing him. When we had a particularly busy time of our life and he couldn't jump every time she said she started shoplifting and eventually got caught so now OH lives in fear that if he doesn't do what she wants it'll start again.
I've ignored to a large extent - she after all is not my mother! but it's becoming more and more of a strain on OH, she phones pretty much every day (if he doesn't answer she keeps phoning, if he still doesn't answer in the past she's left a message crying and saying she's going to call the police as he must have had an accident) and I can see him tense when his phone rings, he doesn't like going to visit as he feels like he needs to 'perform' for her and she constantly wants to know what we are doing and when - it's like his life is under her microscope.
The guilt and manipulation of his emotions is constant - what the F can be done to manage this He won't go LC as the guilt is too much and his dad (yes she does not live alone) is a total enabler - any thoughts please....

When we had a particularly busy time of our life and he couldn't jump every time she said she started shoplifting and eventually got caught so now OH lives in fear that if he doesn't do what she wants it'll start again
@mumofmanydaughterofone That's pretty out there isn't it 😳
although I wonder if she actually shoplifted and got caught or if she made it up?
She's really got him caught in her spell hasn't she, he's trapped because of his guilt, is there any mileage in trying to get him to see that he ought not to feel guilty?
What about if you stop engaging at all on anything to do with her, be sympathetic on issues to do with her but change the subject quickly and don't enable him in his obedience and deference to her?

@mumofmanydaughterofone ..... him living in fear of what she might do if he doesn't jump to attention every time she demands it....
He just needs to call her bluff, and if she escalates call her bluff again so that it ends up hurting more than it hurts him, she will have to stop doing it, if you can just get him to see that?