I'm thinking of leaving :-( (boring, skip to last paragraph)

[SilveryMoon]

I won't bore you too much, but I will off-load a little with a bit of background.
Me and dp have been together for 4 years. We have 2 children.
I feel that he doesn't do enough to help and support me.
he works full time and I am a SAHM but will soon be starting a part-time job and will be looking for a childminder for the ds's.
Dp has never been very hands on with the boys, he never takes them out just on his own or does anything with them. n the rare ocassion that I manage to get a lay in, he just ignores them and leaves them watching the telly.
Once, I stayed in bed until 11 am and the children weren't even dressed!

I don't get any emotional support from him, he never just gives me a hug, all physical contact has to lead to sex, but as I don't want to have sex, we don't have any physical contact.
I just got offered a job after not working for 3 years and he didn't even congratulate me, or when I started studying for a diploma he has not offered any ebcouragement or support.

I have tried and tried to have that conversation with him about how I need some help, but nothing ever changes, and part of me thinks he'd be more use to me if we split because at least then he would have to see the children on his own and I'd get a break.
I've just had enough.

But I can't leave. I don't have anywhere to go. He owns the flat we live in and I don't have any money.
What can I do?

Silvery - why did you contribute to the deposit on the flat but it is in his name only?

Silvery did your savings go on the deposit of the flat that he owns? How come you don't both own it if you put down the deposit? I don't know what the legal implications of that would be but I would ask Citizens Advice about it if I were you.

I think your situation sounds pretty miserable and it sounds like you'd be a lot happier on your own - unless he is able to change his behaviour.

Sorry, was a bit brutal and your subsequent posts do make it clear that he is at the very least not taking his parental responsibilities seriously. Do you have somewhere (friend, parent, sister?) where you might take the children for a week or so for a rest and to get your head around things?

Sorry x-post with littlecritter

Silvery,

It was very brave of you to answer those questions I put and I reiterate I was not expecting an answer at all.

You are worth so much more, you truly need to work on your innate low sense of self worth and self esteem (all that may have started in your childhood too).

You are both a good mother and a good person, you do not need such negative people and influences further dragging you down. You are worth something, we all are!.

BACP have a list of counsellors; I would urge you to make contact with them and start talking. It will be hard going for you but it will be so worth it in the end.

After reading your last posts. I do think both of our issues are effecting the way you both are in relationships. I think maybe if you got some outside help then it would benefit you both.

I think it cant be emphasised enough how your experiences during childhood can impact on your relationships. You can change things though but if you dont then you will both break up and go from relationship to relationship with the same problems happening over and over. You do both need to be willing to change though.

Sorry, just jumped in the shower before I have to tell myself off for not having anyone dressed

Erm, I think that we could get a better deal on the mortgage in just dp's name, because i wasn't working and wouldn't be contributing, plus it didn't seem like an issue, it was to be our home and we'd be together forever.
Plus I saw it as if he is paying for my mobile, my internet connection, my credit/store cards etc then I can use my money for something he needs.

And yes I do think my issues come from my childhood. My dad worked away for a while and then was made redundant while my mum worked, so I remember my dad being around a fair bit.
My mum also has self-esteem issues, she is very shy (I am not) and she feels she never has anything important to say.

When I was 11 my dad told us that he's gay, so there was alot to deal with there too, but we all came through it and are fine. FWIW, the story goes that my mum always knew about my dad's sexual preferences but they fell in love and couldn't help it.

Did you have anything legally put in writing saying that you'd paid x amount towards the flat?

No, it is stated that I have no financial interest in the property

I'm surprised how easily people can reply to relationships posts by saying straight out (about people they don't know) that they 'should get out asap' and 'it can't be fixed'.

I think your situation has the potential to get much better.

He hasn't outright refused counselling so that is potentially still an option.

In my experience a lot of men are just a bit dumb and clueless about a womans life and things that are important to us.

I think they can be trained and they do get better over time.

Eg - they need reminding about things like your birthday, mothers day (their own mother included) and so on.

If you have children together I think that we owe it to them so much to try every avenue to keep the relationship together.

I understand that some relationships are beyond repair.

(I thought mine was and we split went through family court, was nasty blah blah. Somehow we come back together and all is mostly good now. It can be done.)

You were in love at some point. Do you have the same goals re; family etc.

I truly believe that being with an inconsiderate oaf is loathsome but not 'unfixable'. Separating from your childs father when you had plans to be together forever carries its own lifelong regrets and should only be done when you have tried everything and he is a really bad person.

I have found that my DH will help out but still needs instruction most of the time, I don't think that is abnormal.

I think the men who work full time and split the labour at home who can cook and clean effectively and do everything re; childcare appropriately (ie; the way you would do it) are probably the abnormal ones.

Thanks Jamiki
Maybe you're right too.
Everyone who has replied here have had some valid points and given me lots to think about.

FWIW, dp is a quiet man. He is so laid back he is horizontal and has never been an emotional person. When we got together first, that was fine, i didn't need any emotional support, I was a strong, confident, independant woman, running a business and didn't have much time for anything else.
he moved into my flat before I'd even noticed and things just kind of fell in to place. We never had that conversation about moving in together or even about dating, it just sort of happened.
Infact, we didn't go out for our first proper date until I was 6 months pregnant (due to my hectic work schedule).
But now our lives have changed, I'm not saying he should change, but I need more now than I did then and if he cannot provide it, or at least try, then what am I doing?
I also want to give him everything he needs, but he doesn't tell me what that is. he says he is happy with life, but I don't know if that is the case or not. I have to take him at his word as he never does anything or says anything.

Nobody else is saying this to you, Silvery, but I'm not scared of being labelled a Mumsnet harridan

He has financially abused you (flat deposit)

He controls you financially "It's his money"

He doesn't care for your children's welfare (week indoors)

He is abusive towards DCs (dragging, shouting, impatience with toddler walking, etc)

He verbally abuses you (DS had to learn "get back in the kitchen" from somebody!)

Huge red flags re his own parents

and there's more ...

This is absolutely horrid. The only good news is that you're questioning whether your relationship is ok! (No, it isn't.)

IMO, you're living with an abusive twat who has conned you out of your money, is using and controlling you in multiple ways and probably laughs his little socks off about it behind your back

Please, please keep talking things through with Atilla.

Thank you for your input Grace
It sounds really bad when I read it back!
He is not a bad man, the word dragging amy have been an exageration on my part, maybe frog-marched is a better description.
He is not wehat I'd call a bully. I don't even think he is aware of his actions half the time, I think he thinks that I am too soft on the children because I try not to shout and that is why they whinge when with me but not at him. I think this is because they trust me and are secure in our relationship and are unsure of their relationship with their dad I haven't told him this, but I think we really do need to talk.
I would really like him to be able to be open and homest with me and tell me what he sees as my positive and negative points so I can work towards meeting his needs and expectations, but only if he will do the same for me

I also don't think dp is as manipulative as what we're all making out. When I say it's his money, that is my attitude, it hasn't come from him. Also, I have control over all our spending. I hold all credit and bank cards so if he wants money he asks me. I spend the money how I see fit (which is why we're always skint) so I don't think it's his intention to contol me. I also make all of the decisions, I ask his opinion om things but always says he doesn't know. He didn't even come to view schools with me.
I do think I can be very controlling and over-powering and I am the one with the temper and the big mouth.

I'm feeling better than I did this morning and rthank you all for your responses.
This is far from over, but I am definitely going to talk to him

I also don't think dp is as manipulative as what we're all making out. When I say it's his money, that is my attitude, it hasn't come from him. Also, I have control over all our spending. I hold all credit and bank cards so if he wants money he asks me. I spend the money how I see fit (which is why we're always skint) so I don't think it's his intention to contol me. I also make all of the decisions, I ask his opinion om things but always says he doesn't know. He didn't even come to view schools with me.
I do think I can be very controlling and over-powering and I am the one with the temper and the big mouth.

I'm feeling better than I did this morning and rthank you all for your responses.
This is far from over, but I am definitely going to talk to him

Silvery,

I would re-read Grace's post to you and have a very good think about what she has written here too. The sad thing here is that you have actively made bad choices and have allowed this to happen to you with predictable result I might add.

No your relationship is NOT okay and never has been to my mind. It is both dysfunctional and unhealthy. You really want your children to see all this long term as well?. You really want them growing up with this male role model for a father?. You perpetuate the problem if you do not act decisively. Men are not necessarily dumb jerks, there are plenty of good honest men out there who do a day's work and do their fair bit when it comes to homelife.

I am not one to shout "leave him" but your situation is bad enough now to warrant such a course of action. How much more are you expected to put up with?. Where is your tipping point?.

You are teaching these children that it is permissable for you to be treated like rubbish. They see it all, see his lack of caring and action towards both them and you.

These children are being subjected to damaging lessons being taught to them by both of you. Where do you think we learn about relationships first and foremost from?. It is not fair on them at all to be witness to all this. How do you think such problems are perpetuated?. One generation i.e you and your partner have already been profoundly affected by your various issues, this is going to be passed onto your children to their overall detriment.

Silvery - you have tried to talk to him without success before now. You've stated it is unlikely he will go to Relate. Your own background made you a prime target for someone with even less self esteem and worth than you have (and yours was very low to start with). He actively latched onto you like a bloody leech and you allowed this to happen. He is making you feel worse and this is not going to get any better.

It never fails to amaze me either how some women actively downplay such serious relationship problems. This cannot be fixed and this is because he does not want to fix it. He's quite happy as he is - he is treating you the same way as he treated his Mother (that is a huge red flag).

Good luck with talking to him, I do not think you will get anywhere with him and he'll revert to type soon enough. Do keep us posted as to developments.

"I would really like him to be able to be open and homest with me and tell me what he sees as my positive and negative points so I can work towards meeting his needs and expectations, but only if he will do the same for me"

Silvery,

If a friend was telling you this what would your response be?.

I daresay if you were to give him a list of both positive and negative points he would not like it one bit.

What about him meeting your needs and expectations in the first place?. Where is his responsibility?. You should not have to be responsible for him as well as you, you are solely carrying this.

He will not do the same for you; he would have done so by now. He sees you hurting and does not care. You've been conditioned as well by both past events and him to accept this harsh treatment of you.

This is an unhealthy relationship and he is not interested in fixing it. You cannot fix this on your own.

When I got in from the park a while ago, he did come and ask me what was wrong. I told him I wanted to talk later after the boys are in bed. he said ok.
I then mentioned that I was going to ask the doctor about counselling and if possible would he come with me and I mentioned I was thinking of making us an appointment with Relate, he asked why and I said because I'm not very happy right now, that I am concerned about our relationship and that I think we need help communicating properly as we have failed to sort out things in the past.

While the boys were eating dinner, me and dp were in another room and I told him that he didn't even congratulate me on my job offer, he said he didn't realise, but if I felt he was being negative it is only becauuse he is concerned about who will care for the children and the impact it will hyave financially and also about their ability to adjust especially ds1 when he is due to start nursery in september.

But he has said if |I want us to go to Relate, then he will.
I remember now that his sister told me a while ago that he likes the easy life, he is always happy to go with whatever is happening.

He is not very good at confrontation and is normally happy (or whatever) about decisions I make. i don't think it's always because he doesn't care.
He does love the boys, I don't doubt it and they adore him, when dp is in the right mood, they can have loads of fun together, even just playing monster hide and seek in the flat.

Attila I am so so grateful for your replies (and everyone else) but a part of me thinks I owe it to my children to try to make this work. They are young, if we can get a more even balance of things, they will be ok, they will adjust, and like you said, no one has the perfect relationship (although ours is far from it)
And yes, I think he is a bit of a rubbish father atm, but he might be the worlds best dad to a 7 year old?

I also spoke to some RL friends today about it, and they said they go/have been through similar with their dp/dh's too and that it is a man thing.
They have said if I want to leave they will all help and support in any way they can, but it seems my best friend's dh is just as thoughtless as my dp. My friend tackles this by being very assertive and giving her dh fim simple instruction when he is at home. Maybe I should try something like that?
tell him he will be responsible for dinner on a saturday, he will bath them on a tuesday and wednesday and he will take them to the park or somewhere for at least 2 hours every other sunday.

he is good in that it is him that deals with the boys through the night when he is working days because I fail to wake up if he is here, sometimes (like yesterday) if he gets in in the morning and I am still tired or had a bad night, I'll go back to bed for an hour or so and he'll sit up with them after a 12 hour shift.
He is not all bad.
Idon't think he is being manipulative, i think I have a victim complex iyswim.
God, listen to me talking complete shit!

Silvery,

I am going to be very patient with you here and I will keep my response to you measured because you are backtracking. I think you need to re-read this thread of yours from the beginning particularly your earlier posts.

No-one has the perfect relationship that is true but yours is so far from being a normal and healthy one that it would take many years to put right even if you both entered such a process willingly. This is not a healthy relationship at all; its a dysfunctional and ultimately destructive one as you're being dragged down with him and taking the children with it. Its bad enough for you, its just as bad for them.

What is his actual incentive now to be a better person?. He still talks about "his money". He has to want to change for his own self, you cannot force a change of attitude.

What if your children treated their partners in the same way as yours currently treats you?. How would you feel about that?. You taught them that as well as he. Currently they are learning damaging relationship lessons from both of you. That won't change if you remain together!.

You've had 4 years of all this from him and he has had more than ample time and chances. He has not wanted to change. You left him once and his tears and promises brought you back. What has really changed between now and then in terms of his attitude?. I think he is saying all this now because he's twigged that you are going to leave and you'll probably fall for his bs again. You've also been conditioned by your past to accept all this nonsense as somehow "normal". It is patently not. You have no idea at all what a normal healthy functioning relationship is because you have never seen one.

You think you owe it to your children now to make it work?. Oh please!!. This is not a "man" thing FGS and you live with him after all; you have just attached yourself to a lazy and immature manchild who has not shown himself to be a decent parent or other half in any way, shape or form. Being nice to the children on occasion does not go anywhere near putting right his past wrongs shown towards them (and I daresay your son heard that phrase re the kitchen from him). Given his parents role model this is not at all surprising. It is sadly predictable actually.

Frankly he needs to promise you an awful lot now to make this work and I don't think he is willing and or able to because he is not willing to put the work in.

Book the Relate appt and see if he does go along to it. I think he will bottle out of it and if he does so go on your own. You need sole counselling anyway for your innate low self esteem (which keeps you there with him too).

He would be the world's best Dad to a 7 year old because they are children and they do not question their parents parenting skills or lack of. They just accept it as it is like both he and you did with your own parents.

FWIW he has never refered to it as his money and he never questions what I use it for.
I will read this thread again, I will, but I need to take some time to think this through more. It is a massive decision for my whole family. But thank you for your support.
You have all given me lots to consider

FWIW he has never refered to it as his money and he never questions what I use it for.
I will read this thread again, I will, but I need to take some time to think this through more. It is a massive decision for my whole family. But thank you for your support.
You have all given me lots to consider

Your points about your own sense of dis-entitlement are valuable, I think, Silvery. If your H is as laid-back and ... well, uncaring, even in a benign sort of way, as you and your SIL claim, then perhaps there is hope. Perhaps he just accepts what's on the table and takes his lead from you. This is becoming very convoluted in my head! If you were to start channelling your most assertive, upbeat, in-charge friend, would DH just roll along with that, too?

Have you tried it?

He probably would Grace.
He struggles on more vague instruction like when I said can you bath them 2 nights a week but then I have to ask him again on the night but I'm now thinking if I stated the day he would fall in.

I'm sorry for chopping and changing my view. It is a tough decision

He probably would Grace.
He struggles on more vague instruction like when I said can you bath them 2 nights a week but then I have to ask him again on the night but I'm now thinking if I stated the day he would fall in.

I'm sorry for chopping and changing my view. It is a tough decision