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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Am I being unreasonable?

117 replies

Skara · 18/07/2003 23:45

D(**n)H was away last weekend on a boys jolly. That has meant I've looked after ds and dd (3 and 1) and the house and garden etc for 12 days on the trot without any help from him. When he was arranging it he was very quick to promise that to make up for it I'd get a lie in both days this weekend but now he's being all narky about it, making comments like 'well you'll be alright with your TWO lie ins' which I think is blooming unfair given that he was off last weekend in luxury surroundings while I got up at 5.30am with the children. Thoughts, anyone who is still up at this ridiculous hour? Am I entitled to my turn at having a relaxing weekend and if so, do I just ignore his carping or how do I handle it?

OP posts:
jasper · 22/07/2003 23:23

Droile I think your expensive organic fruit analogy is fantastic and highly original.

Aloha ( and others) in theory I could not disagree with anything you said and I do THINK I too would probably not stay with my dh if he did NO work round the house and kept letting me down ( agree this shows huge lack of respect) BUT I bet you Droile, in the early days with her Dh (when he was still a feminist!)would have said the same thing in theory, i.e. she would leave him under those circumstances. Droile correct me if I am wrong here.
The thing is life isn't lived in theory, it's lived in practice, day by day. Since the early days when Droile's husband talked a good game and Droile would not tolerate slovenly behaviour they are now married with two kids, a home and a network of friends and family. Getting out of that is much harder in practice than in theory.
I have said before I am impressed that Droile can still see the good in her dh despite all the cr*p because I don't think I could see the good as I would be too busy seething!

ScummyMummy · 22/07/2003 23:27

I do believe it, Tinker and I'm a fine one to talk about messages really- my sons are probably getting the message that women are lazy slobs who believe housework to be men's work and rarely do their fair share even when nagged.

ScummyMummy · 22/07/2003 23:55

In fact I may be a female version of Droile's man though he sounds rather sexier than me. Which is rather a sobering thought- the housework laziness similarity that is, not the fact that someone is sexier than me. Certainly I am very selfish about pursuing my own interests which I value above a tidy house even though I know excessive mess upsets my partner greatly. I react very badly to being asked to do stuff I don't want to do, which is unfair on my partner. I can procrastinate for England and often genuinely forget what needs doing. I don't come up to scratch on the housework front and would do less than I do- or at least do it differently- if it wasn't for the constant reminders and rows that make me fume.

Droile- I strongly agree with Jasper that your coping powers are as brilliant as your writing. Your posts have been wonderful- beautiful, clever imagery.

bells2 · 23/07/2003 08:53

Scummy our arrangements largely reflect two things - DH's available time and his total and utter absent mindedness. He does a miserable, city job which involves 12 hours a day sitting in a pressure cooker being shouted at and then 1 - 2 nights a week entertaining clients. I have had the great advantage of not working Fridays which means I can get all the chores done, still have an outing with my 2 in the afternoon and then all four of us have a lovely weekend with absolutely no dull chores or supermarket outings to get in the way. I would far rather I did the washing on Friday than he did it on Saturday when we could be doing something together instead. I am also far far more efficient than him at getting jobs done.

When he gets in from work he is utterly exhausted but when I get in, I genuinely like to unwind by cooking dinner and am happy to tidy up. I am not worried at all about the messages my children get by watching this. We have the luxury of a cleaner so it is really only the laundry, cooking and tidying imbalance that they could pick up on. Yes they will grow up thinking that only Mummies cook but they will also grow up seeing that this is one of their Mummy's great pleasures in life. More importantly to my mind, they will grow up seeing parents who are very happy, love and respect each other very much and get a lot of pleasure from doing things for each other. Our childcare is always 50 / 50 when we are both around.

I do take your point though that overall our attitudes also reflect our upbringing. My mum was a real powerhouse. My earliest memories are her campaigning for Town Mayor, harassing politicians into submission until stuff like nurseries and libraries were built locally etc but also doing ALL the cooking, laundry etc at home with nary a complaint. I guess that growing up, it was just inculcated into me that women do an awful lot and actually, as it happens I grew up with more respect than her than my father.

doormat · 23/07/2003 09:05

bossykate does make some good points.
Could it be that most men are like this due to the socialogical aspect of what a "nuclear family" is supposed to be about.
IMO it is a question of balance in a relationship.I dont mind doing blah blah if dh does not mind doing blah blah.

musica · 23/07/2003 09:11

Scummy - I know how you feel! My dh is very particular about the house being tidy, and particularly being pregnant, I just can't keep up! So he believes himself to do everything. Which he does pretty much. I do the cooking, and shopping, but he does all the tidying/cleaning, and looks after ds when he (dh) gets home from work. I feel quite unreasonable, but I get so tired!

Bugsy2 · 23/07/2003 10:50

This is a fascinating thread. I am still trying to work out what I think. H as you know, had an affair and we are currently separated. He also became extremely lazy and unwilling to help and involve himself in family life and IMO it was most definitely passive aggression. He was opting out. He wanted to drive a huge wedge between his life and family life so that he could justify to himself seeking comfort elsewhere.
There has to be a balance of power within a relationship and as all relationships are different the dynamic will be different. So for eg Bells loves cooking, it helps her relax therefore it is not a chore but for some people it is. Somehow, you have to feel that you are not being taken advantage of by your partner. I think communicating is the key to this. I think that Droile's partner is definitely behaving like a naughty child (which is what H was doing). When he was literally forced to do something he would do it but he had/has no inner wish to improve his behaviour, so immediately the pressure is lifted he reverts to his old ways.
As for do you stay or do you go, I guess it depends how miserable you are. I was as miserable as I have ever been in my whole life when I agreed to a separation. Had the situation perpetuated, I know for sure I would have sunk into serious depression as I was heading that way fast.
Being on your own is hard but not impossible. I'm not sure I'm on my own for good yet and H and I are really trying to talk about what went wrong and if we can make it better.
I really sympathise with those of you struggling with men who are taking advantage.

bells2 · 23/07/2003 11:03

Bugsy you have summed it up well. It's all about how you feel about your role - as you say, specifically whether or not you feel you are being taken advantage of or whether someone is leaving you to do bear the brunt of domestic drudgery almost as a way of getting back at you. I guess I was just trying to make the point that just because you do say 80% of household chores, it is not necessarily the case that either of those two things apply.

I guess I can be sensitive about it because most of my friends think I'm nuts for the amount I do at home and don't hesitate in telling me so.

Clarinet60 · 23/07/2003 11:29

I've been really cheered up by your nice words about my writing. Thanks.

Jasper, yes, a few years ago I would have been one of the first to say I'd leave under these circumstances. It's a funny feeling to have to eat your own words. It's taken me a while to appreciate his good points and I suppose there has been a lot of work involved. I think the marriage builders website gave me a bit of scaffolding.

Scummymummy, I'm really interested in your point of view because it sounds like you have some insight into how someone could behave like that (without meaning to insult you - I know you can't possibly be as bad as that!) I assume that you don't despise your partner and that it's more to do with how you feel about the way your time is spent rather than what he is being forced into doing. I'm not putting it very well, but I think you provide an important 'other side of the coin', and hearing more about this might help me to understand.

ScummyMummy · 24/07/2003 03:06

Hi Bells- I do very much agree that happiness and respect are the most important things and those things will shine thorough for your children, I'm sure.

Hi Droile. You're right- I love my partner very much indeed, yet I know I upset him by not doing as much as I could about the house and I often do feel terrible because of that. I think the root of it is that I just don't care about tidyness and cleanliness to the same extent as many people I know and, to make matters worse, my prefered tidying style is circular- ie I like to sit on my bum and let the place get really messy and then clean it to within an inch of its life where upon I will sit on my bum again for a good while until it seems to need a thorough clean again. If I lived alone this is exactly what I would do with no qualms whatsoever. Since I don't live alone, I do accept that this isn't on and I do try to help keep the place as habitable as I can manage day to day, with varying success.

The fact remains that I find it extremely difficult. I've never really learned how to manage a house, I guess and I'm quite lazy and not very skilled at it. I hate doing things little and often which seems to be a key thing with housework. If there are a few dishes by the sink, say, it just wouldn't occur to me to wash them up because it doesn't seem worth the effort until there are LOADS and the fact that they're there doesn't in itself offend me- or even register half the time. I've never really related to that "Oh I couldn't go to bed knowing there were dishes in the sink" attitude. I'm utterly adept at working around what I consider a comfortable amount of mess. I have loads of other things I like doing more and little self-discipline. But, unfortunately, these selfish ways upset my partner and my failure to even notice that the kitchen has disappeared- or worse, my capacity to notice it but not do anything about it quite yet (but I will very soon honest) because right now I want to play with the boys, cook, write something, prepare some plans for work or college, or absolute worst laze about with a book or on the internet- all of which I consider more important than cleaning- understandably drives him to utter distraction.

I think I also fail to notice when he does little bits and pieces round the house- like the few dishes- and we therefore have disasterously different perceptions of what we each do- I remember back to my last grand tidy of the kitchen and think I'm doing loads. He remembers washing up small amounts for two days running and thinks he's doing loads. We confront each other and are mutually incredulous... When he then challenges me or starts sulking, I feel that my whole way of approaching life is being critisized, that he doesn't love me enough to accept my faults, that there are more important things in life than cleaning, that I was just about to do it anyway but now I'm not going to because he's a nagging b*, that he should do more himself because he cares more and is in any case hardly prolific in the tidying stakes himself, that he's expecting me to do the bulk of the work because I'm the woman- in other words it opens a right can of worms and I am unfair and mean and upset about it and so is he, though he has slightly more cause. I think that "slightly" is important though- we really aren't as polarised as some on here sound and obviously there are other areas where it balances out- eg I spend slightly more time with the boys, have slightly fewer lie ins etc. It's not a situation where he does everything and seethes, more that neither of us do quite enough and he seethes more than me because he cares more about it.

I think the bottom line is that we're working at it- he knows that it's never going to come easy to me and I really do take on board that if he cares about it then it's important. Full stop. Translating that understanding into practice is the hard bit for me though and always will be. Better go and do those dishes, I guess.

I don't know if this has any similarities with your situation, Droile, but I've enjoyed wittering on about it and I hope it helps somehow.

Jimjams · 24/07/2003 07:35

I think scummy's hit the nail on the head. I've been dippping into this and reading and thinking it for a while. I'm pretty untidy, dh is untidier. I get cross becuase he leaves his socks dropped on the floor rather than putting them in the wash but he really really doesn't notice them. I've lived with people tidier than myself and it was a nightmare! I constantly felt guilty, but still couldn't manage to be tidy enough. I suppose I just think there are more important things. I'm also not very organised, so if I open the post I tend not to throw out the junk striaght away so it kind of piles up and then I have to sort the pile to throw out the junk. Luckily dh's standards are lower becuase otherwise I think I would feel constantly on edge.

I now can't hoover when ds1 is around, so unless I know we have someone coming and I kind of make a note in my diary to do it it when ds1 is out only gets done once a week by my cleaner (when ds1 is at nursery).

I feel like scummy- we're slightly out of sync, but not enough for it to be a problem. I know that neither of us could live with my SIL or MIL, for them a dusty house is a sign the world is coming to an end, the differences are too great.

I do love the house when the cleaner has just been, for some reason I can't keep it like that!

hmb · 24/07/2003 07:43

Jimjams, we seem to have the same house! I'm a slob who would like to be tidy, but can't be bothered to put all the effort in. I'm happy as long as things look tidy, so everything gets pussed into cupboards. Open them too quickly and everything falls out. A metaphor for my life, if you like!

But I am happy at the moment, as I have finised my level 2 of the PGCE and can now see the carpet in the study for the first time in weeks! Glad you had fun in Brittany, we went toi the same place 2 years ago, great place, but dreadful weather when we went.

Jimjams · 24/07/2003 07:54

Congratulations hmb! Hope you had good post exam celebrations

When I was in the first year at college the scouts used to bring people to my room as they couldn't believe it belonged to a girl (mind you I also had the smallest room in college and probably the most junk, and no cupboard space at all- the wardrobe was too narrow for a coat hanger). I loved my flat in Japan- reeeaaallly big cupboards, you could open the door and pile eveything in again, and hey presto tidy flat.

bells2 · 24/07/2003 08:15

Scummy, your post is fascinating. I think my DH has more in common with your approach to housework than mine i.e. in the main, he just doesn't really notice things. I suppose I just happen to be an energetic person about the house and although I'm not exactly proud to admit it, I derive quite a bit of satisfaction from having a sparkling kitchen etc.

Batters · 24/07/2003 08:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Clarinet60 · 24/07/2003 20:27

Thanks Scummy, very informative. 'Mutually incredulous' , that sums up all my confrontations with DH! Actually, it never occurred to me that he might wonder why I don't love him enough to acept his faults. Hmmmmm

janh · 24/07/2003 20:44

Scummy, I think you and I were separated at birth...

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