Am I being unreasonable?

[Skara]

D(**n)H was away last weekend on a boys jolly. That has meant I've looked after ds and dd (3 and 1) and the house and garden etc for 12 days on the trot without any help from him. When he was arranging it he was very quick to promise that to make up for it I'd get a lie in both days this weekend but now he's being all narky about it, making comments like 'well you'll be alright with your TWO lie ins' which I think is blooming unfair given that he was off last weekend in luxury surroundings while I got up at 5.30am with the children. Thoughts, anyone who is still up at this ridiculous hour? Am I entitled to my turn at having a relaxing weekend and if so, do I just ignore his carping or how do I handle it?

Hi Dudes.
Well, it loos like I came back at a very timely moment, non?

I won't get too swollen headed, I know you haven't been talking about me ALL the time I've been away!

To update you all, I'm still in this hideous dilemma of a situation. I'm feeling OK about it at the moment because we haven't had a row about it for a couple of weeks, but nothing much has changed except for more childcare when he's here.

I tried custy's advice, just disappear to the shops/pub with no notice, but he doesn't finish work until way too late for that. The next best idea was to book some Yoga classes in the evenings and pay in advance so that he HAD to turn up and let me out. But, you've guessed it. He only turned up in time for 2 out of the 4 classes I booked. Expensive yoga classes, huh. I can't really use a babysitter for things like that because I use up so much childchare time when I'm at work.

If anyone fancies giving me a few suggestions, I'll be happy to tell you what I've tried and why it didn't work. I have two choices, I think. Put up with it, or leave. I've tried changing him and he won't be changed. As for 'why did I marry such a T*sser', I didn't know he was like that when I married him. He was working flat out when we first lived together, literally 7 days a week, and promised things would change when the work eased and children came. He practically gave me a feminist treatise!

Sorry, didn't mean this to be so long, yawn ......

hello droile, welcome back! was most uncomfortable discussing posts about you and your situation in your absence. sorry to hear things haven't improved much...

oh please, pph.

i found the self-congratulatory tone of some of these posts, and yes i was including yours as you must have realised from the tone of your response, smug and irritating beyond belief.

the reason i referred to the other thread originally was to point out that some people have done all the things that are usually trotted out as the cure-alls for this sort of behaviour - laying down the law, refusing to do the chores blah blah blah... absolutely without effect.

the reason i then quoted the post on this thread was because you said

"i can see droile's point"

but then went on to make the comment

"but I happen to believe that a person's attitude to their role in the house is inseparable from their attitude to their role in the marriage and I wouldn't accept being treated as the servile, second-class citizen that some of these stories suggest"

seems to me droile's point totally passed you by!

also, i agree with jasper that droile put it very well.

as for suggesting that i am a voyeur for wanting to press a point further that has been ignored in many posts, well... i don't think that comment is worthy of a serious response.

finally, it is common practice on mumsnet to refer to other posters' comments, as you must be aware.

droile, i apologise if drawing attention to your previous comments has upset you - that wasn't my intention, they made a big impression on me at the time and have changed my opinion on situations like yours, which is why i thought they were worthy of repetition here.

oh and now that droile is back you needn't feel so uncomfortable about giving her some constructive advice on how not to be "a servile, second-class citizen".

Droile has said she will either have to put up or leave.
I would leave.
Plenty of people wouldn't - fine, that is their choice.
If you find the fact that I have a mutually supportive relationship with my dh smug and irritating, that says a bit more about you than me. I'm not in the least bit smug about it, as I've repeatedly said, I appreciate him enormously. As he does me. And I suspect that Droile wouldn't begrudge me that relationship, but she can speak for herself.

bk, I don't think people who were saying they wouldn't put up with it were being self congratulatory, any more than people on a tantrum thread are being self congratulatory when they talk about not putting up with tantrums and go on to describe what worked for them. Sorry, probably not a great analogy but I don't think anyone was slapping themselves on the back for choosing a 'good' husband. Many of us said we wouldn't tolerate it - that's not self congratulatory, it's fact.

Maybe I would leave in Droile's situation but I can't say for sure because I'm not in it. Only Droile (who didn't ask us on this thread anyway) can decide - the rest of us have to decide based on our own circumstances and comment on other circumstances where we are asked (i.e Skara's original post asked was she being unreasonable).

I agree with PPH when she says "This thread has thrown up some interesting issues which people clearly need to get off their chests - has given others support that they aren't alone, has given rise to some amusing stories, and has given other people - including you - the chance to feel grateful for their dhs. none of which is bad". Quite. Even if you don't agree with her comments about servility and second class citizenship, she did say it was what she happened to believe, which I think she is entitled to do. OK, maybe an IMO might have been useful there but I don't think anyone's being particularly smug here - aren't we all just posting our own experiences?

it is the language that you have used to describe others and their relationships which sounds smug, imo, not the fact that you yourself have a "mutually supportive relationship" with your dh.

i would probably leave too - but it wouldn't be easy and the situations described here and, unfortunately, on too many other mumsnet threads sound far from easy to live with.

as i said earlier, it is all too easy to make snap judgements on other people's lives/choices/relationships, especially (imo) if you are fortunate enough to have a loving and mutually supportive relationship and have never experienced an unsupportive one.

Droile's postings made a big impression on me too and I was racking my brains trying to remember who it was who had described so well what it was like to live with someone who just WOULD NOT pull their weight around the house.
I too have been guilty of thinking men behave in such and such a way because we let them and while this may be the case in some marriages Droile gave an excellent description of how this is NOT always the case.
Droile, glad you're back and sorry the domestic situation has not improved. You must really love him to put up with all that , I know I for one couldn't.
Again, even that is a bit flippant for me to say because the alternative ( leaving) is just so awful that who knows, I might well put up with it .

www, the people saying they wouldn't tolerate are the people who have not been put to the test, aren't they?

thanks www. I've only been talking about my experiences and what I would put up with, (which I thought this post was about) if this hasn't been clear in my posts then sorry for that (but reading them back I think I've been as clear as I can be). Maybe I should have said IMO rather than "I happen to believe" but then I always was crap about using webshorthand (and smiley things which only ever insert themselves where I don't mean them to go.

Anyway not very comfortable with web-fights so I'll sign off on this thread now. Good luck Droile - hope you get your lie-ins, all of you who have to fight for them - and to those who don't have to fight... I don't think you are the least bit smug!

Anyway I'm not very good at

oops, wondered where the beginning of that paragraph went, I lost it, so had to start it again!
ignore last line...

and bk, you know NOTHING about my previous relationship.... which I did walk out of.... so less of the talk about snap judgments please.
night all

which makes me think, just how bad does it have to get before someone leaves? (just asking in general, not about anyone here specifically)

Droile if you can see past your dhs domestic laziness and still appreciate his good points you are a better woman than me. If my dh cared so little about the home and more importantly about my feelings toewards his lack of care I don't think I could appreciate any of his other more redeeming features . I'd be too busy fuming

bk, I don't really know whether the people who say they wouldn't tolerate it are the people who haven't been put to the test. Maybe they have been put to the test in previous relationships and maybe it's why they know they cannot tolerate it? But maybe not, we don't necessarily know - and as you say, assumptions can be dangerous.

Jasper, good question but I guess we've all got different levels of tolerance - while one woman would leave given a particular set of circumstances, another would put up with it I guess.

I too have left a marriage but we did not have kids.
Once you have kids it's not (just) about you anymore.This to me is quite a frighteneing thought!It's almost as though your threshold for tolerating cr*p gets raised, whether you like it or not.
Unless you are independantly wealthy with well behaved children and lots of eager babysitters close at hand, bringing up kids alone must be very difficult.

Just reread that and it didn't really convey what I meant it to so here goes again.
If you have a relationship that despite your best efforts is somewhere between bad and downright awful and you have tried every conceivable way to make things better there comes a point where you consider splitting up. If you have children this brings with it a whole new set of problems and considerations. It may seem as though you are swapping one set of miserable circumstances for another , possibly with the added burden of financial hardship. It is no wonder that many women choose to stay put.
On the other hand there are many examples of women whose marriages become for them simply intolerable and they do make the break and many go on to rebuild far happier lives.
It is dreadful to live for years on the brink of not knowing whether to split up or not.
Believe me, I've been there.

Bossykate, I wasn't upset at all about you repeating the post - I was grateful to have been listened to and understood.

There's lots of food for thought here and it's very interesting. It's been a learning curve for me to see just how much I will put up with for my children. If it was just me then yes, I would have gone. If I were being beaten up then yes, I would leave after the first punch and I have always found it hard to understand why women stay with violent men because the children suffer too. The rub for me is that the children would suffer much more if I left. They have a great relationship with him, which is a right bugger for me, really, because it brings guilt into the equation.

I have all sorts of fantasies about leaving the minute the youngest turns 18, revenge, all kinds of nonsense. I think Jasper hit the nail on the head when she said 'swapping one set of miserable circumstances for another' - that's what it feels like. It just doesn't feel like a proper family to me when there are only 3 of you, unless you have a big personality. I don't mean to insult single parents - I think you do a great job, I just think it would make me more miserable to try to do it all myself. I may do all the practical stuff, but there is a whole load of emotional support and some strange fabric that I can't even describe that he provides them with too. It's something to do with building a childhood and it's just not the same if you don't all live in the same house. I apologise again to single parents, but I suspect that the happiest of you are not truly single in that you probably have family and friends who are not too busy to pop in regularly.

Most people who know me know that I don't 'let' him get away with it. They know that I've tried everything short of murder. I've tried things that would make your hair stand on end. As I've said, when you come across somebody really stubborn who will not change, it's a staggering learning curve.

That said, I hold out hope for one or two tricks I still have left up my sleeve.

"strange fabric that I can't even describe that he provides them with too" What a great way with words you have , Droile. I repeat what I said earlier. I think you are a hell of a woman to be able to see past all the very bad stuff and appreciate his finer less tangible qualities.

I have appreciated your honesty in descibing your situation . It is always interesting to hear the dynamics of others' situations, particularly as I speak as one whose home life is not always harmonious.

Finally, I don't wish to sound flippant here but if you ever did decide to leave him, you come across as being someone who would be more than fine

Thanks Jasper, that's lovely.
Oh it's got so late again. I knew I shouldn't have come back here, I'm just so addicted that nothing else gets done.
Sweet dreams.

me too.
It's such a fun addiction when you are housebound with kids.

So much cheaper and better for you than going out drinking.( remember those days?)

Keep yer chin up lovey, and let us know how things go with mr lovely-but-lazy.

pph, you made the highly insulting suggestion that i got a voyeuristic thrill out of the situation i quoted, so i'll thank you for less of the snap judgements too..

droile, i'm pleased to see you back, posted for you twice on missing persons...

hears voyerism and takes a peek pun intended

Just been catching up after getting up this morning before DD for a bit of peace and quiet while everyone else sleeps. It seems posting my query on Friday was a bit of an epiphany - life has turned around completely! Dh has broken down and confessed to feeling stressed and depressed and has decided to consult his GP for help/counselling/anti-depressants etc. Has acknowledged and apologised for being a total b***d to live with over the last 9 months and for turning into a selfish pig who does nothing around the house. TBH I had begun to think that the kind, sharing, generous person I'd married had just evaporated and although things aren't going to get better overnight it seems that life might stop being so hideous here. Mind you let's see what happens this weekend. I could easily be posting the same thing all over again...meanwhile I agree with a lot of what you've said Droile. I have thought about leaving lots of times but having a sister who is now a single parent I know exactly what it's like. She says that staying in an imperfect relationship might look like the worst sort of compromising but in comparison to the compromises she's now forced to make daily it's nothing. Droile you've summed it up beautifully referring to the strange fabric - that is exactly what she'd say is missing.

Well things would have to be pretty desperate for me to kick out my DP and leave my DD without a father to share her every day with. When some of you guys talk about 'not putting up with it' how much wouldn't you put up with? Would you seriuosly breakup the family home becuase since you child was born your husband/partner became a bit lazy and it was more of a 70/30 relationship rather than 50/50? Please understand there are no digs at anyone, no fight required here, just interested in what it is you wouldn't put up with that's all.

Skara, I'm so pleased about your epiphany and hope he keeps it up. I know what you mean about your sister's situation. TBH, one of my closest friends is a single parent, and although she wouldn't and couldn't have stayed with her partner, it scares me to witness the life she is leading. It's a real strain on her having to be everything to her children and she often cries when she sees nuclear families out together.

To sum up my position, when I'm not plotting DH's sudden demise, when I'm feeling content with my lot, I see him as some massively expensive huge organic fruit that I buy for my kids to eat each week. He costs me about 6 hours a day of work, but he provides them with safety, extra self-esteem, and extra emotional nourishment... blah blah ... I suppose if there was an equivalent fruit that provided fantastic physiological nourishment (like brreast milk) we would buy it if we could. To survive, that's how I have to balance the bad side, but it gets really hard when I realise how little he cares for my feelings in this matter - that's when I offload onto these boards.

During the worst moments, I suppose my addition to the fruit analogy would be that it's a fruit that I'm allergic to. It makes me ill sometimes, but it makes my kids better than well.

Bossykate, I appreciate your posts very much and know that no voyeurism is involved. I 'tune in' to these boards often to see how a person with a particular problem is getting on, and I often think about them during the day. There's nothing voyeuristic about that, it's just plain human concern.