Red flags - warning signs for people to avoid

[Janos]

There was an excellent thread on this fairly recently, which unfortunately I can't find and I think this topic is worth a re-hash! Think it may be Reality who started it.

I was reminded of this and how important it is to trust your instincts with behaviour that makes you feel uncomfortable after going on a date at the weekend. As dates go it was pleasant, but there was no spark.

Anyhow I got an email from 'datee' a day later suggesting I have a look at something I might be interested in. I thought hmm, I'll have a look at that when I have a moment and left it there.

The next time I log into the site (following day) I was really quite shocked to get an unpleasant message. I won't rehash it here but the tone essentially was "how utterly dare you not reply to me?!"

It left me thinking, well I wasn't sure about seeing you again but well done, now I really don't want to see you again EVER you pompous git. Now this is a response I could understand from a friend but not someone I have been on ONE DATE with.

Any contributions welcome here by the way.

why are there so many horrible men? why why why

If he is instantly jealous of all your friends, and tags along to every occasion, "just to give you a lift" which really means, "Just so i know exactly where you are"

guys driving who don't know the way, and when you tell them they roll their eyes and say they doubt you're right and where you're trying to go is in the other direction i.e. you stupid woman ... and then when you're actually right and say, are you going to acknowledge that I'm right, they say 'oh don't create a scene, why are you so difficult'.

Whatname: Well, basically because we still live in a world where men are considered more important than women therefore some men have this massive sense of entitlement - that if they date a woman she is 'theirs' and should be prepared to put up with anything and everything they choose to do.
Also, because women are still so very socialised to believe that they are freaks and failures if they don't Have A Man, some men have never had to think about their horrible behaviour.

Another thing to watch out for is oversharing. Especially people who want to tell you all about their problems. In toe curling detail.

SGB, but so many complete nutters? unbalanced, angry, nasty.
it's so sad

I think I'm probably quite lucky to get to 40 and not had any experience of this!

It's not having a bad relationship with your mum that is the problem - it is what KIND of bad relationship. Of course, if your mum is toxic and unpleasant, you've just got to deal with it the best you can, it's not a reflection on you.

What I mean is a man who is rude/unpleasant to/about his mum whether or not she has apparently done anything to deserve it. That, in my experience, does reflect on how that particular man seems to relate to all women.

If his mum was just a nasty piece of work, I would still want to see him politely avoid her rather than treating her with disdain or disrespect.

WHatname: To be fair, horrible men are in a minority. Because of the nature of MN, women who are in abusive awful situations feel able to post openly about what's going on: among your friends/colleagues/family there are hopefully plenty of examples of couple-relationships that are perfectly OK. People don't often start threads on here just to say 'My DH/DP is all right, you know' - it's those in distress who post more frequently and more fervently.

I would agree spero that's it's not as simple as avoiding someone who has a bad relationship with their mother - it's how they deal with their relationship that counts. The BF I had came across to me as misogynist because of how he disrespected his mother's views and didn't value her role. And his father seemed to have no respect for the mother either- they both either ignored her or disagreed with her and treated her as though she were a waste of space. Being brought up in that atmosphere is bound to have a long term negative affect on the way a boy sees women.

It's interesting to see racism and sexism flagged too. I didn't include them, because tbh both of those have been such a deal-breaker for me, that I couldn't even be friends with someone with these views, let alone sleep with them.

Well quite, WWIFN.

I'm talking about a situation where you're on a date with someone who seems pleasant enough (maybe you're enjoying their company) but then they make a casual remark about 'pakis' or crack a sexist joke.

Sometimes you might write it off, pretending you didn't hear it (because it's such an awful thing to say) or find yourself making an excuse..?

That's the sort of thing I mean.

That made me smile for some reason Janos, because in our house, the "P" word is a swear word, so much so that when the DCs have heard anyone at school using it (and once an ancient relative did) they gasp in horror and assume the person saying it must be an axe murderer. Consequently, I think if ever they were on a date with someone who said it, I really think they would "get their coat"!

That's exactly what people should be doing WWIFN.You've obviously raised intelligent, thoughtful children.

What I mean is some people might ignore their initial reaction to it (shock/disgust/revulsion/discomfort)and they absolutely shouldn't. It is a grab your coat moment.

During the horrible two years when I was trying to divorce XH whilst still sharing a rather small house, I never came closer to killing him than when he was watching telly. He'd chuckle and snort away at the news and Crimewatch. Every time they mentioned "rape" he'd laugh, whenever they showed a photofit of a black suspect he'd go "cor strewth", and once there was a famine report from, I think it was, Mozambique? (alas, there have been so many famines of recent years) and he went "Har har har, serve them right"!!!

I saw red. I stood up, shaking. I said was he actually laughing at hundreds of people dying? He said well they spend all the money on guns. I wouldn't have wasted breath on saying more than "you stupid old bigot" except that the boys were there, so I gave a speech I hope the UN would have been pleased with. I think he said something like "all right then" in his best "humour the loony" tone, but I didn't care as long as the DCs took in what I'd said.

Some time after we'd finally separated, DS4 (then 12 or so) told me his dad had made some comment in the car about famine victims asking for it, and he'd challenged the logic and made him back down. I was so proud.

• Makes racist/sexist/otherwise utterly grim "jokes" - or even worse, subscribes to those shit text services that provide him with a steady stream of them. He isn't joking, he really is an arsehole.

• Pushes your boundaries by doing things he knows you don't like, even little things like using your toothbrush, while looking you right in the eye as if to say "you think i care what you like? well i don't"

• claiming you/parts of your body are his. I can (just about) imagine this being nice between some couples, but if you have just got together and he starts touching you and saying "these are mine/this is mine"...well it is creepy and terrifying

-tells you what to wear, or insists on taking you shopping so he can contol what you wear

• telling you or heavily indicating just how lucky you are to have him

Can I add:

• cruelty to animals (e.g kicking at or hissing at a cat)
• using "text speak" in text messages if he is over 20 years old
• ANY convictions of any kind, especially ones involving dishonesty or violence

I had to laugh Kiwi...my Dad uses text speak. He's 64 .

I used to go out with someone whose circle of friends would frequently drink too much and then make rape jokes and dead baby jokes. They genuinely seemed to be believe that 'but it's only a joke' somehow excused it, and that I couldn't possibly be actually bothered.

'men' that need you. they need you so much it's hard to tell if they actually want you.

"my life was so empty before you"
"i miss you like crazy" > was sent in a text when i deserted a needy ex to watch tv upstairs. er, grow a pair and leave me in peace!
"i would do anything for you" > i'm ever so sorry but i can't say the same.
"i'm going to really miss you tonight" > i'm having a night out with the girls, get the fuck over it!
"i bet you're really missing me?" > no, sorry, but i love nights in on my own.

with needy men i always felt like i'd been given the responsibility for maintaining the lifeline i had apparently thrown them. yuck, honestly i could puke!

but the real danger signs for me came from the 'man' who said:

"you shouldn't get too close to me" > about as honest as he ever got

"have you ever slept with a black man? i want the truth"

"you fuck with me and i will destroy you"

"i know what you were thinking, don't deny it, i can read you like a book"

In my experience, people who have shown the following traits are ones that I am glad are out of my circle of friends.

Anyone who

1.Pushes boundaries no matter how big or small.
2.Does not respect personal space and uses inappropriate ways to get your attention. For example, grabs you by the arm, shoulder etc.
3.Does not ever admit being in the wrong and never apologises.
4.Plays mind games with you.
5.Is extremely charming and friendly one minute but menacing, aggressive or sulks when he/she doesn't get his/her own way.
6.Manipulates or emotionally blackmails you to get his/her own way.
7.Keeps giving you an ?ultimatum? yet when you concede to the conditions he/she runs back to you and becomes understanding and apologetic because it has not had its intended effect. There are only so many times you can issue an ultimatum!
8.Has ever hurt you but refuses to acknowledge it and blames you for being over-sensitive.
9.Calls you names or insults you and then accuses you of not having a sense of humour when you get offended. This is verbal abuse dressed up as humour.
10.Says one thing with total conviction but means and practises the opposite.
11.Has an enormous sense of entitlement and believes that the world owes him/ her a living.
12.Does not believe in earning something and playing fair to achieve it. If he/ she desires something then he/ she will go through lengths to obtain it even if it involves trampling others on the way.
13.Evades responsibility for most things especially when confronted with wrong doing. The common responses are
a) What's right what's wrong?
b) I can't help it.
c) I felt like it.
14. Takes you for granted and expects you to run around and pander to their needs at the drop of a hat.

15.Believes that those who he/she is criticised by are jealous of his/her ?success? either in attracting members of the opposite sex or professionally.
16.Happily criticises others because he/she believes to be superior than them.
17.Has a crude sense of humour of the ?American Pie? type most of the time. Come on, we're not in school anymore!
18.Has a one track mind and will find double meaning in anything.
19.Insists on not being racist, sexist, misogynistic etc but often makes jokes that are.
20.Has a desperate need to protray him/herself as kind, good, respectable and thoughtful and often tries to tell you that he/she is such a nice, honest person. In my experience, the nice and honest people that I know have never had to tell me that they are.
21.Repeatedly lies to you and lets you down. Swears that he/she will turn over a new leaf but goes back on his/her word shortly.
22.Rewrites history by claiming that you have said/done things that you haven't and swears that she/he said things that you haven't. Also known as gas lighting.
23.Extremely clingy and goes to you for everything- demands attention and time from you and sulks if you don't oblige granting it even if you have a good reason.
24.Self pitying and complains a lot about not being able to find a stable partner and blames exes for failed relationships. Uses lines such as ?story of my life? when describing being rejected or dumped.
25.Fancies self as babe magnet/ womaniser and self indulgently enjoys telling you about his former conquests.
26.Is extremely immature when dealing with serious issues.
27.Is an emotional retard.
28.Is not supportive when you share a problem but expects you to drop everything when he/ she comes to you with one.
29.Consistently makes you feel bad about yourself and that you are always in the wrong when you don't agree on something.
30.Lunges and verbally attacks you when you attempt to keep a low profile after an arguement.
31.Makes you feel threatened when he/ she talks to you.
32.Asks intrusive personal questions early on.
33.If it is a member of the opposite sex, uses relationship cliches very early on such as the following:
1.It's like we're a married couple.
2.You're the woman of my dreams
3.I need you.
4.I need to be with you.
5.I can't live without you.
6.You complete me. (Common theme: NEEDY and DESPERATE!)

34. Thinks nothing of doing things that will get him/her or even others in trouble with the law or at work.

35. Looks you up on FB, google, phone directory etc.
    36.Asks you lots of leading questions to manipulate you to agree to something that you would otherwise not dare mention.
    37.Is very keen to offer you lifts as if they are doing you a favour.
    38.Lacks empathy and is self absorbed.
    39.Lacks morals and sense of guilt.
    40.Sneers at your interests and hobbies but has little of his/ her own.
    41.Manipulates things you say, feel and think byt twisting facts about you. Brainwashing in other words.
    42.Believes that he/ she knows you better than anyone else including your spouse.

Wow - was that all one person boogie?

Neatfreakiness and criticism of others such as flatmates who are not neat. Or freaks. There is something really wrong with someone who sets a bar for others with whom he lives but does not tell them what he wants (and actually has no right to expect any standard of neatness or dishwashing or whatever because he doesn't own the place) and then goes around in a huff, cursing about them when he comes upon breakfast dishes they all left in the sink before heading off in the morning. In the first place, what's the big deal, and in the second, it's the expectation that other people were supposed to read his mind.

Neediness and instant, magical love and wanting to settle down way too soon.

Has a string of previous flatmates who he doesn't speak to.

Anything weird in the mother-son relationship -- too much animosity or too much fondness.

Religiosity/ excessive piety/ fear of sin = run a mile.

Pomposity and arrogance.

A tendency to describe other people in a nutshell and especially to try to describe you.

A tendency to try to improve you -- you should wear this/ put that on your CV (even though you don't have any experience or knowledge of it)/ apply for a job for which you are extremely unqualified/ green is your best colour/ 'you're always so.....'; 'you never .......'

Proud of teenage drinking exploits or visits to strip joints while at the same time very focused on stupid things like punctuality or sending thank you notes -- any hint of a split personality or mixed up priorities.

No apologies, ever. Minimising your experiences of hurt or worry or challenging your perceptions.

Criticising colleagues for their alleged poor work habits.

Mathanxiety. They are traits from a couple of people with whom I have had the misfortune in being acquainted. Thank goodness one of them who has all these traits is completely out of my life.

Punching walls.

Saying obscene, utterly disgusting things even in joky context.

Anyone that makes you behave in ways you never thought possible - so that you look at yourself and can't believe what you see. I have never had stand up screaming up all night rows with anyone except my ex partner. Thank god I realised that he was the problem and not me so binned him and met fantastic DH. There are good men out there!