Happy relationship but DP suddenly says he never wants to get married...

[TenaciousMe]

Need some good advice pleeease,

DP and I have been together for 4 years and have a DD aged 18 months. We own a home together.
I've always wanted to be married in my life. It's not that i disagree with unmarried people or anything like that, its just something that has always mattered for me. We've talked about getting married on a number of occasions over the years and he's always said that he intends to get married, but just doesn't feel ready yet, or that its not the right time etc.
I was perfectly happy being pregnant and unmarried, as i always thought it would all happen, and didnt really matter what order IYSWIM? When i was pregnant we discussed DD's name, and i agreed to solely give her his surname as he agreed that we would get married at some point and so all be the same family name.
Then a couple of nights ago, during a flippant conversation about some friends of ours, he said he didnt think he'd ever want another child or get married! we ended up having a reeeally long argument, where he admitted that he'd always felt that marriage was 'pointless' and 'old fashioned' and he was happy the way we were and didnt think he'd ever want to do it.
Now, the 2nd baby thing i can deal with. DD is only 18 months, so he may well change his mind, and i think i could live with it if he didnt, but the marriage thing has really thrown me!
He's a really great DP and we have no real problems with our relationship other than this issue. I love him so much and i know he loves me. He says he wants to be with me forever, but he just doesnt feel like he'll ever want to marry.
I'm finding it really hard to imagine a whole life where i never get married. I can't explain why but it really has always been really important to me that it would happen one day. Aside form the obvious girly stuff that i've always thought about our wedding day etc, I think there are some people that are perfectly happy never getting married, and some who it means a lot to.
So i dont know whether i should just accept it and stay with him, knowing that i'll never be married, or whether we should split up as we both want different things out of a relationship?
WWYD?

i would talk to him again another time,not make a decision yet based on that one convo

Well I think marriage is important, not from a traditional morality point of view, but just in terms of legal practicalities it is much easier.

A lot of men can't be arsed with weddings and also I have been hearing/reading a lot of stuff recently about how men don't want to get married because they think if their wife dumps them she will get all the money. He may well think, well we're living together and we have a child. I have everything I want, why bother taking the 'risk' of getting married?

Maybe you should point out to him the difficulties of what could happen if one of you died. Surely he would want to make sure everything was as easy as possible for the other person and your DD. You are probably a bit young for this, but if you're married I think you can have your spouse's pension if they die, but if you're not married it all just goes back to the state. I think if you put it in terms of legal stuff and practicalities he might begin to see the point. A lot of people think that when you have a child together and have been together a long time then that's as good as being married, but it's not in the eyes of the law

Find out what it is he doesnt want about marriage - the lifelong commitment, the legal side, the big do etc and explain what you want (security - legal, psychological for you and dc, formality, etc). Try not toi argue.

However, I am with you on this one. I wanted that commitment. Fine if it doesnt bother you, but if it does then its a big problem for it to be ruled out

I think you ought to go for some relationship counselling to discuss your differences.

I decided I would rather live with my boyfriend, unmarried, than not have him at all. I was kidding no one but myself. I am now very happily married to someone completely different and we have 3 children together.

I would put to him the legal practicalities.
I also think his excuses not to get married are poor ones, he may never be bloody ready but you had a child together, he was happy enough to do that!. Maybe he thinks that having a child together is a bigger commitment than getting married.

Is there a will in place?. If not make them asap. Also you need to be named as the pension beneficiary in the event of death in service.

From a purely legal standpoint you are not related to each other. If he dies suddenly and or intestate you could well be in the sink financially as well as having to deal with your own very real grief. You are not his next of kin; his parents would be seen as that and they could make decisions over your head by dealing with him and his estate if he were to die suddenly and or intestate. You cannot open letters of administration for him in the event of his death nor even choose a tombstone. You would also not receive a widows pension and at £80 a week this is money you could well do with at that time.

He probably does not realise any of the above either. The property would also form a part of his estate.

In the event of a separation also what is his is his and what is yours is yours. Some cohabitees do last but many do not stay together long term. Cohabitation does not let him off his legal responsibility towards his child in the event of a separation. Such a split is still as complicated as a divorce, possibly even more so.

Were his parents unhappily married, if so that would have coloured his view considerably.

You need to find out if he is against marriage or just weddings - weddings I can perfectly understand. Ask him would he be happy if the two of you just went off to the registry office by yourselves, no fuss afterwards, etc.

I am always astounded when people are prepared to have a lifelong commitment with someone by having a child with them, but are scared of 15 minutes in the registry office...

It maybe old fashioned but so is the law, especially when you have children, as secunda says. I've no idea where you live / how well off you are but from a legal point of view - you or he will have to pay inheritance tax of 40% on any of the estate worth more than £325,000. If you were married then the tax exemption transfers to you, so no tax paid on £650,000. A big difference.

Quite a few blokes seem to hate the idea & likely expensive of a big wedding. If being married is what's important to you, rather than the "big dress ceremony", then make sure you explain this to him. If it's just a matter of an afternoon down the registry office with you & DD (with msybe parents or they tend to get upset) then maybe he'll cope. You can always have a party to celebrate another time / 1st anniversary.

Think it's very out of order for him to have allowed you to give DD his surname on the understanding you'd have it at some point in the future & now reneg on thst agreement. What a cad! He definately deserves ba good talking to.

Would emphasise the need for you both to have wills if he keeps on refusing, for the sake of DD. Do remember you'll need to make another one should he do the decent thing & marry you, since the will is invalidated by marriage.

Would you seriously consider ending a perfectly good relationship just because he doesn't want to get married? I have always thought of marriage as 'just a piece of paper'. He obviously loves you or he wouldn't be with you now or have had a child with you. Why change what is not broken? As for the legalities of marriage, surely a joint mortgage and a will would sort out all that.

Marriage is not just a piece of paper.

It is a piece of paper, that covers legal eventualities you may not even have thought of. A will and a joint mortgage will not cut it.

I think your main concern should be the issue of him not wanting a second child. If this is something that you do want, it will be this that will cause the relationship to be put into question. Being married will not change the relationship you have with him, but not having a child that you want but he doesn't will.

I think it helps to separate out being married from wedding, & wedding into big-white-wedding & small functional registry office wedding. I like PotPourri's advice.

Thanks for the advice, I'm staying at my mums for a couple of days so i can think about things without getting into arguments. I think maybe then i should go back and discuss it with him a bit more with some of the points you have said.

It's hard though, because I want to discuss it with him, but I don't want to have to convince him to want to marry me IYSWIM?

Shineon, when i say i'm not as worried about the second child thing, I mean that it would be nice to have a second, and i do hope he changes his mind, but if he doesn't I think I could be happy with just DD. It's not something i feel so strongly about that i'd break up with him. Marriage on the other hand, i'm not so sure about.

Anyway, thanks for the advice everyone

Marriage- as anyone who has been through an acrimonious divorce knows - is NOT just a piece of paper.

Anyway, back to dilemma. OP, if neither you or your partner wish to marry, then this would not be an issue of commitment.

But as YOU really wish to get married and he won't do it then I am afraid that he isn't that committed to you.

I mean why NOT marry you, it would make you happier. I believe that 100% of men would marry their partner if that is what their partner wants.

Marriage exists for a reason- to make it clear to the outside world that a couple are a couple so there is no ambiguity or doubt.

It's NOT old-fashioned at all. If a couple just cohabit there is no reasonable way (other than the making of EXPLICIT agreements on paper) of knowing what their intentions are and, of course, it's not fair for others to "guess" what those intentions are.

Marriage is an important sociological tool. Cohabitation isn't enough.

All these men who won't get married to their partner (if SHE wishes to marry, that is) usually end up marrying someone else, bear that in mind

Was your DD planned? You don;t have to answer on here if you'd rather not, but it's possible that your DP never envisaged you as a long-term-lifetime-commitment anyway, and though he's accepted becoming a father and (presumably) is being a good one, he may have an almost subconscious uneasiness at the idea of tying himself to you even more closely - even though having a child with someone is the only real lifetime tie: people who want out of a childfree marriage can cut all ties with the former spouse once the divorce is finalised, whereas however much you want to be rid of an XP, if s/he is the other parent of your child, you are morally and (pretty much) legally obliged to remain in some sort of contact.

I wonder if you have been hanging-on-and-hoping with this man. It does rather sound as though he's less keen on you than you are on him: unfortunately these situations rarely end well. He may agree to marry you but, in every future row, no matter how trivial, he may bring up the fact that you 'forced' him to get married.
I would suggest you look at your legal position re house, finance etc and calmly go thorugh all of that with him - the fact that you need to make wills, that you need agreements on what happens with the house if you separate etc etc and see what he says/does then. But if he is one of those who regards you as a 'will-do-for-the-moment' partner then maybe it;s better to know and then you can decide what to do from a fuly0informed position.

"Why buy the cow when you get the milk for free?"

-unfortunately this is a frequent attitude of men to marriage.

I started an almost identical thread a few months ago and got flamed for saying that marriage was important to me.

Whether you should press this issue, IMO, depends on your financial situation-

eg do you both earn a similar amount?

Have you made career sacrifices for your DD?

Do you have a joint mortgage and how much of a deposit did you both put in?

What savings (and crucially pensions)do you each have?

Marriage disadvantages the partner with the most income/capital (usually the man) s unless you are in the highly unusual situation of being wealthier, then your partner is ripping you off.

Does your DP realise that if either of you were in a serious accident it would be your parents who would make the life or death decisions?

If you are really determined, apply to change your DDs name to yours by deed poll.

rubyrubyruby Marriage was invented as sociological aid for people so that they can declare to the world that they wished to be viewed as a long-term couple.

Long-term cohabitees have NOT made use of this aid therefore in the event of a split/death and so on, the authorities cannot (and SHOULD NOT IMO) assume anything other that they are just two people sharing a house.

Anyone who thinks marriage is "Pointless" or "old-fashioned" is:
a, A fool.
or,
b, Hasn't really thought about what marriage is for.

It's possible that OP's "dp" falls under option "b".

I therefore take back my statement that "dp" is not committed to OP. It IS still possible that he doesn't view the relationship as a long-term option BUT it is also possible that he just hasn't thought about what marriage is for. Perhaps he believes in myth of common-law marriage. Well, if people are ABLE to get to a register office there's no way that the government will deem them to be married in a "common-law" sense.

If he HAS considered what marriage is for and still refuses to marry OP THEN I'd say relationship was in trouble.

If he dies his money will go to his parents not you or DD unless he makes a will. You and his child will be left penniless.

If you die your DD and your estate goes to your parents, he would have to fight for legal rights to his own daughter...unless you make a will saying he is to be guardian.

Get married or make very detailed wills.

I am married, and we also have life insurance and wills...I'm a bit of a belt and braces person.

Women, on the whole, (sure it doesn't matter if you're Katie Price or someone wealthy) are fools for having a long-term relationship and children outside of wedlock/ or at least proper legal-financial arrangements like a cohabitation agreement.
Anything really that would offer them the equivalent of marriage without actually being wed.
It's society's fault with it's bs that having a "partner" is the same as marriage- no it's not. Think this is why word "partner" winds me up.