Is emotional/domestic abuse a criminal offence?

[poshsinglemum]

If not, should it be? I think so although emotional abuse mabe difficult to proove.

mumble you have no staying power and I would have thought as a family lawyer that this discussion (because that is all it is) would be of great interest to you.

I have moved on fgs. That's a stupid phrase anyway. I have changed. And I am combative on this issue on behalf of my son who may end up paying the heaviest price for his father's illegal actions.

Of course, they are not illegal though.

My God ! Mumblechum...you are a family lawyer?????? And you come on a thread about Abuse and tell victims that it is partly their fault?????

Disgraceful.

GAG, I'm not specifically saying that abuse victims are to blame. What I'm saying is that in any relationship breakdown, both parties have to take some responsibility for that breakdown, even if the responsibility is limited to a failure to break away.

Both in RL and on MN I advise often till I'm blue in the face a victim of abuse about how to get away, give details of the legal remedies, signpost to womens aid & other organisations and very frequently the victim doesn't accept any of that advice because they're not ready to end the relationship.

Or I drop everything, rush them to court for an emergency injunction and the next week see the client arm in arm with her abuser, fresh black eyes and all.

"in any relationship breakdown, both parties have to take some responsibility for that breakdown, even if the responsibility is limited to a failure to break away."

However, I try to parse this, it just doesn't make any sense to me at all. Ms A leaves Mr B because he is abusive to her. So according to you, is Ms A responsible for the breakdown last week, for failing to leave, or this week, because she left?

For goodness sake, this is not about physical abuse. This is not about black eyes and women who find it terribly hard to finally extricate themselves from a physically abusive relationships.

There is, quite rightly, a legal framework for dealing with physical assault/abuse. It is a crime.

But I am not talking about black eyes and physical assault.

Why deliberately change tack like that?

NT, that was in response to someone saying that sometimes a relationship breakdown is 100% one person's fault. IME, it isn't.

UA, I don't want you to think I'm belittling emotional abuse. It is just as bad as physical abuse. What I'm trying and evidently failing to get across is that a register of badly behaved men would not work as I think you want it to.

Some men (and women) are badly behaved. Sometimes they have good reason, sometimes they are just arses. The trick to dealing with them is to cut them out of one's life not just physically but emotionally, whilst learning how to avoid getting into that situation again.

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And the children they leave behind should just accept that too then I guess. And also absorb the message that, somewhere along the line, their mothers had it coming.

I just do not agree. Sorry. I do hope that one day there will be some kind of legal framework in place to halt men such as my ex from continuing to abuse women, father children and vanish.

Fwiw, I spoke to the poor young prostitute (she's 21 he is 45) he created a month-long 'relationship' with in Cambodia while he was waiting for the tesol course to start back in Thailand.

It was pitiful and I felt very sorry for her. He 'ended' their 'relationship' by email saying he had found 'another bitch who lets me fuck her in the ass and also swallows my cum'.

But of course, men like this have 'rights'. These men are a danger to society.

He's an utter jerk, we can agree on that UA.

"first look within" is a good mantra imo, even if that means accepting that sometimes ending the relationship yourself is YOUR responsibility if it's not right, not blaming the other party for ending it later, however bad the circumstances. "
Mumblechum, it's not a question of anyone blaming the other party for simply ending a relationship. It's the fact that someone has skipped the country and abdicated all responsibility, plus committed grand larceny. 'Ending a relationship' is not what UA is talking about here, as Gonesouth pointed out.

Since you're a family lawyer (having been divorced, that revelation doesn't surprise me in the least ) you are surely aware that it takes the average battered and abused woman SEVEN attempts to leave her abuser.

You seem completely unaware of the dynamics of abuse, so completely impatient with the unfortunate victims and their inability to break free that you castigate them for being manipulated, for not ending it themselves -- I am appalled by your utter ignorance and callousness. Yes, no doubt it's frustrating for you to rush to court only to see your efforts count for nought a week later, but it's far worse for the victim, who is caught up in something far more powerful than she is, usually, and yes, far more powerful than you or the courts too. I am sad for your clients that you seem unaware of how an abuser manipulates a victim into taking him back, the cycle of abuse/bunches of flowers/honeymoon/abuse etc., and so jaded and uncomprehending as to the reality of the lives of victims of abuse.

No fault divorce stinks. And yes, I know there were problems with the system it replaced. The idea UA is getting at here is the idea of remedy for injustice, and sadly, in a cold and clinical no fault system, there is no allowance for that. In fact, in some cases, if one party has enough chutzpah to do what her ex has done, there isn't even any inclination or ability on the part of the law to attend to enforcement of the paltry details it adjudicates.

If the Catholic Church can establish fault through the process of annulment by way of exhaustive witness statements, psychological examinations, etc., why not the civil courts in similar vein? The Church can, and does, flag some individuals who go through the annulment process and refuse to allow them to marry again in the church.

You know what, I give up. You haven't a clue MA about how many of my clients are extremely grateful to me, recommend me to their friends, tell me I've supported them above and beyone the call of duty. I'm hiding this thread now as it's becoming abusive to people who are trying to help.

Actually what I think would do some good would be a massive campaign of education and awareness, not a name-and-shame, but pointing out to people you don't have to put up with a shit relationship, and that even a dull, draining, unsatisfactory one can be changed and if it doesn;t change it's good to walk away. That it's much better to be single than in a relationship with an arsehole. That being single doesn't make you a failure.
That ONE chance is the absolute maximum you should give someone who mistreats you, whether that's hitting you, stealing from you or publicly humiliating you.
That you have a right to be treated with courtesy and kindness by everyone but most of all by people you live with. That if you have escaped a violent partner, don't pick the next one on the basis that 'at least he doesn't hit you' if that's about the only thing that can be said in his favour.
That you can't love someone ';enough;' to change them from a knob or a loser or even just someone who doesn't love you or want to love you, into the parfect partner.
We live in a culture where women, in particular, are constantly fed the message that if they are not in a couple-relationship they should be hunting for one and apologising for the fact that they are single, when couple-relationships generally benefit men far more than women. We are endlessly told that 'good enough' is 'good enough' and some people sadly interpret that as 'just about bearable' is good enough, when it isn't.

Of course there are happy couple-relationships, loads of them. But the absolute first step on the way to even starting to look for one is to be happy with yourself as a single person and to know you deserve someone who appreciates you and is lovable in him/herself, not the first walking sack of shit who just happens to be available or show an interest.

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Well said sgb (your last post that is....your previous ones on this thread were a "sack of shit", to quote you)

Sorry solid, but that has nothing to do with what I am, obviously extremely badly, saying.

Nothing at all.

It is just you reiterating your mantras that

1. If a relationship is shit for someone, they have a right to leave
2. Being in a 'couple' isn't the Holy Grail.

Rocket-science? No.

Missing entirely the point of the original post about emotional abuse being a criminal offence? Yes.

And mumble, you have taken offence and gone on the defensive very quickly. You just don't seem to have any empathy for those who have been subjected not to black eyes, but to soul-destroying emotional and psychological abuse.

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OK, I've been following this. UA I wasn't convinced by your arguments at first, but I now think you are right. Not sold on the idea of a register though. SGB - normally you post interesting, challenging but also compassionate things, but not here.

In a perfect world, you would leave at the first sign of abuse. But the whole point of EA is that it's not public humiliation or when s/he hits you or steals from you.

My EA ex never once called me names or swore at me. But plenty of professionals with experience of abuse thought he was one of the highest risk people they had come across. I needed lots of them telling me that before I could dare to believe I didn't deserve it.

It is so subtle and insidious that it is incredibly hard to draw those lines.

mumblechum I think your beliefs and values in relation to abuse are appalling. Many of your clients may be grateful, but they are unlikely to be people leaving an abusive relationship. It explains why so many people who have gone through the experience have such a poor experience of the law. My solicitor too (a lawyer recommended by bloody Women's Aid!) bought into my ex's charming and plausible demeanour and felt it necessary to enquire about the stability of my mental health. I'm now glad it wasn't you representing me.