Is emotional/domestic abuse a criminal offence?

[poshsinglemum]

If not, should it be? I think so although emotional abuse mabe difficult to proove.

There are plenty of people who should come with a warning attached.

And I agree wrt the victim-blaming.

"other people behave very badly in refusing to let a partner go." The example of stalking or threatening suicide does not apply to normal people who are mentally and emotionally healthy. This type of manipulation is not simply bad behaviour, though, but evidence of personality disorders or serious mental health issues. These people really should be warned about. And no amount of involving third parties will dissuade such a person from trying to keep up the toxic contact.(There is no way that I know of, bar locking one in the cupboard under the stairs indefinitely, to keep a man in a relationship that he doesn't want to be kept in. Normal people tend to be reasonable and let others go, or accept the inevitable and move on with their lives)

I'm going to have a long shower. Despite much re-reading, I'm flummoxed. I don't know how I seem to have suggested that what UA's ex did was OK or her fault. I'd appreciate any enlightenment, if offered.

And furthermore, in denying the reality of the Emotional Abuse to our children we are saying that what they witnessed was normal. This is a very dangerous road to go down.

Children SHOULD be told the truth about their EA parent. In schools now children are being told about this issue, and about time too. i wish to God that I had been told by someone-anyone that what I was living through as a child was not normal.

It has taken me 50 years to realise the extent of the damage done to me. I will never be 'normal'... and I did have EA partners...but it was not my fault that I was a victim, I did not contribute to the Emotional Abuse...I just did not know that that is what it was. Because it was NORMAL for me.

I have been blamed by others for the abuse I have lived through. My ex-MIL told me that it was my own fault that I was abused as a child.

There is a difference between being at fault for being somehow complicit in a situation, and being unaware that the situation is not normal.

Many victims of abuse of all kinds are UNAWARE that the situation is not normal, that does not make it somehow their fault.

The fault lies with the abuser...always.

It's not always about you Grace

Thank goodness!! Cheers.
I could have written your post just now. Funnily enough, I was the only member of my family to welcome the introduction of DV education in schools

Agree with rowingcah that making emotional abuse a crime would be an emotional abuser's charter: if the Mumsnet relationship threads have taught me anything it is that emotional abusers always try to turn the cards and blame the victim. So how would the judge know who is the real abuser, when it's one person's word against the other? How do you prove that your own frail emotional state is the result of emotional abuse by that particular person? I have heard a lot of exes described on MN who would be delighted to blame their own emotional problems on their spouse with very little justification.

And what about those numerous cases where both parties have been unkind and crossed emotional boundaries? Do they both go to prison? This is a situation that is far less common with physical abuse, because one person tends to be stronger.

UA: Not everything is about you. There are lots of threads on here from women who have left horrible XPs only to find those XPs still making attempts to control and abuse them via access to DC (constant phone calls, emails, turning up unannounced, threats of court action over every little thing). I advise people in this situation that it is not only possible but a good thing to do, to refuse any kind of contact with such XPs and have everything to do with access to DC handled by a third party.
THis is why I think it absolutely vital that people retain the right to cut off other people completely, if they want to (aside of where there are financial obligations: however financial obligations can be dealt with via third parties and without any need for contact between the party who doesnt want it, and the other.)
Can't you see what a horrible idea it would be for anyone to be forced to have contact with someone they don't like and don't want to see ever again. I am not even convinced that there is any merit in forcing contact between a child and an abandoning parent, I think TBH it's probably better that the child is told a diplomatic version of the truth ('Some peple are no good at being daddies/mummies, it's nothing YOU did and [rest of family] love you very much') than have to endure contact with someone who actively dislikes and resents them.

SGB, this thread is not about anyone's right to leave relationships. It is about Emotional Abuse.

No-one has argued against the right to leave a relationship. What has been said is that the way EAs can abruptly leave is part of their abuse pattern, and is devastating to the partner and children left behind.

Indeed this behaviour is described and named in texts ...it is called Idealise-Devalue-Discard. What follows is often stalking and harrassment ...carried out often by the very person who left. Again part of the pattern.

Of course no-one would tell a small child the details of what went on with the Abuser, but at an appropriate age the children should be told the truth.

My children are older teenagers, and I have still not told them the complete story, as I feel they are not ready for it yet.

Unless this issue is brought out into the open, it will continue to destroy lives.

cory you wrote "So how would the judge know who is the real abuser, when it's one person's word against the other?"

Isn't it just this in many court cases? One person's 'word' against another?

There would need to be proof and evidence in order to convict, same as in any other criminal case. based on the evidence, a judge/jury would have to reach a conclusion.

But my point is, that what many men are able to do - abandon their children, ignore all financial obligations to them and cause grievous psychological harm in the process - is not a crime.

I am posing the idea that it should be.

And sgb of course it is not all about me fgs. I am using my shitty experience as a basis for the idea of a 'register' of these sorts of 'men.'

UA: So how do you propose such a register would not be used against people fleeing abusive partners? Abusers often put up quite a good act of being Mr or Mrs Wonderful saddld with a nutjob partner, to the rest of the world. It's not at all uncommon for people who have left, or are trying to leave, relationships to have their own friends and family try to persuade them to remain in the clutches of the person they want to escape from.
And there is already a legal structure in place that is supposed to make sure that those who leave their children contribute financially. That would seem to need some improvement in general but I don't really think that trying to rearrange international law on extradition treaties is like, the first step.

I don't know how it would work. I have no flippin idea. But the justice system as it stands today came from somewhere and is still evolving. So maybe, one day, new laws along the lines I am suggesting, and more international treaties will come into being.

Not that long ago, in the grand scheme of things, women didn't have the right to vote - and it was never thought possible that such a thing would happen/was necessary or even right.

But there had to be a long and vociferous campaign by women who felt their views should be recognised and had validity, before the vote was won.

It is not impossible, I don't think, that in the future, there could well be much tighter laws and more stringent legal pressures in place to prevent men like my exh from abusing women and children in the way that he has.

UA, if your dh had stayed in the UK but you'd still got divorced, the courts would not have been remotely interested in the reasons for the breakdown of the marriage. If every divorce case had to be gone into in detail, we'd be going back more than 50 years when there was an actual hearing in open court with allegations and cross allegations.

All that the court would have been interested in, if you'd had a "textbook" divorce, would be in ensuring a fair split of assets and a fair amount of maintenance.

I agree with SGB that your idea of some sort of register of bad behaviour is ill thought out. Your dh would almost certainly have something to say about you on such a register; it's the nature of relationship breakdown that both parties contribute to it, no one person is 100% to blame.

Sometimes you just have to write a bad time down as experience, learn from it and move on. The best "revenge" (and I use that word cautiously, don't really believe in revenge), you can get against your ex is to live a happy life.

"it's the nature of relationship breakdown that both parties contribute to it, no one person is 100% to blame"

And once again....in the case of Abuse...whatever kind...the Abuser is 100% to blame.

You are blaiming the victim...again.

mumble, the whole point is, he didn't stay in the uk and split assets fairly and agree on maintenance and access for ds.

So what is your point?

He didn't do those things.

Gettingagrip: but relationships break down without one partner necessarily being abusive. And it is a sad fact that sometimes people who have been previously abused go on to make further bad choices WRT new partners, or ignore the advice of everyone around them and the evidence in front of them that a partner is abusive, potentially abusive or just not right for them. Having bad things happen to you doesnt make you a perfect person.

My point is that whether he'd stayed here or gone to Thailand, many of the things you complain about would have made no difference in terms of the settlement. The Court would not have taken into account his conduct, it can only take conduct into account in cases, eg, where there's been attempted murder. Your ex being an utter arse would not have got you any better a deal than if he'd been an angel.

And I truly do not believe that in any relationship, one person is 100% to blame. In order to move on to better relationships and when analysing what went wrong in a former relationship, "first look within" is a good mantra imo, even if that means accepting that sometimes ending the relationship yourself is YOUR responsibility if it's not right, not blaming the other party for ending it later, however bad the circumstances.

And if my idea of a register of some sort if ill-thought out, well of course it is. This is a discussion. I don't have all the answers and I am arguing not only for myself but for many other women and children who have been very poorly treated/abused in a similar way (this is not all about me!)

I am thinking of others - perhaps like cowsgomoo though she is probably under a different name now.

Tell me, if I had an address for my h and went there and just left ds on his doorstep (knowing that he was in) with a letter saying 'he is yours. I am off' then rang the bell and ran off...caught the first flight to Spain (let's say, for argument's sake, to shag boys but in fact I might be have already secured a decent job teaching English as well), would I have committed any criminal offences? (serious question)

If so what would they be? and if not, why not?

I'm a family lawyer not a criminal lawyer but I don't think you would be committing a crime, no.

Because you'd be leaving your child with his father not dumping him on a random doorstep.

mumble the court most definitely would take into account his conduct. You are wrong on that. You and sgb seem to be sort of missing the point all the time.

UA, where did you get your law degree? And how long have you been practicing family law?

UA, I've been following this discussion and I totally get where you are coming from - a unique (sadly) perspective and one which gives you an insight which none of us can really judge.

Your points are clear and I admire your strength - obviously hard won after what your ex did to you.

I know one family where it was the female who was abusive, left the famliy and DCs high and dry, left financial chaos and was impossible to pin down to resolve - and this was in the UK. The male was in such a state (following years of abuse) that he had not seen it coming and his only crime was to love her and the DCs.

The female is, and was, truly evil. I know its a pipedream to have a system where these people are brought to book, but the fact that they can walk away and avoid the full consequences of the law and the state is an outrage.

Unless you have experienced these kinds of situations at close hand, it is hard to understand the force of evil and come to terms with its consequences for the individuals involved.

Of course, being happy is the best revenge, but I can understnad UAs desire to try and help someone else avoid this kind of situation.

I'm leaving this thread. UA, you really do need to move on.

And supposing my exh, not wanting the child (as he has so spectacularly proved) just left it on the step to die, knowing all the time that it was there, who would be at fault? Me for dumping the child on his step or him for ignoring it?

This thread is not about relationships that break down for reasons other than abuse. This thread is about Emotional Abusers who have a modus operandi that can be described and defined.

Of course victims of abuse are not perfect! No-one has said that they are, except you.

You are deliberately, now, I think taking valid points made by people who have huge experience of abuse and twisting them for some agenda of your own. If a relationship breaks down between a child and a parent due to the parent's abuse of the child would you say to that child "well of course it's partly your fault...you are not perfect, but you think you are so you deserve this"?

Of course you would not (I hope).

This is a discussion about abuse and abusers. Not about any other relationship breakdown.

People have many abusive relationships BECAUSE they have been victims before, usually in childhood, and think that the way their relationship goes is NORMAL. Abusers know this and seek these people out like guided missiles.

If someone's relationship breaks down due to physical abuse do you think that it's partly the victim's fault? If not, then what is the difference between physical and emotional (or financial) abuse?

you are very, very lucky to have the knowledge to keep yourself out of an abusive relationship. Good for you. but sadly not all of us have had the childhood that made us as perfect as you are when it comes to relationships!

Many of us have had to learn the hard way. And the last thing we need is smug know-it-alls telling us it is our own fault.

You have absolutely no idea what the background to UA's relationship was, and yet you blame her and tell her she is desperate to hold on to a man who wasn't that keen on her in the first place. Do you know MR UA? DO you even know Ms UA?

I have always read your posts with interest and respect SGB, but this time I think you are massively off the mark.