Is emotional/domestic abuse a criminal offence?

[poshsinglemum]

If not, should it be? I think so although emotional abuse mabe difficult to proove.

I should add, he also abandoned his two daughters now aged 11 and 13 and who live with their mother. He took all the money from the girls' 2 post office savings accounts - totalling 8 grand.

But they don't have any rights or a voice either do they.

My son is lucky in some respects, in that he will never remember his father. He has treated his girls, in many respects, much worse than he has his treated son.

After today's budget there is not much chance that the state - which he has already so royally ripped off - will pick up the therapy bill.

UA, your son is blessed too.

"What your husband did was decide he didnt want to be in a relationship with you any more. That is something every human being has a right to do." SGB, surely theft (from a bank as in a massive overdraft, or from a spouse, who is also left to deal with the bank) is a crime? Or does the intention of shaking off a relationship (I have noticed an anti-relationship bias in many of your posts, btw) entitle someone to do whatever it takes? Are there any obligations of basic decency involved here, apart altogether from the fact that no citizen is supposed to commit a crime? Everybody has rights, including UA's right to be angry. What UA's exH did was extraordinarily awful.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being bitter -- a sexist charge frequently levelled against women but hardly ever against men. "Bitter" is a loaded word.

((Thanx Math. Who would ever want an N in their lives?!))

Can I say too, that Women's Aid were fantastically helpful to me and put me onto the Pattern Changing course - a course that I have long advocated should be available nationwide but, sadly, is not.

WA helped me to see that, yes, he had a right to leave a relationship he was not happy with. Yes, he had many many rights. As did I. I repeat, he did not have the right to ignore his financial and legal obligations to us both in the way that he did.

Many, many men do this. Many of them go to Thailand or Cambodia or Vietnam, and 'teach English'. I am trying to be specific in these cases. Men who do this are guilty of emotional, financial and psychological abuse at its worst. WA is much feted on MN and quite rightly so. SGB you often refer, rightly, to WA as a port of call.

You fatally undermine women's ability to see that they did not deserve to be so abused, when you argue that "he had a right to leave the relationship and you probably had something to do with it."

I notice on another thread that you said that affairs can be good as they can be a catalyst for people to get out of miserable relationships.

I am not understanding your arguments today. You are usually robust in defending women who have been involkved with knobs and urge them to get redress.

But there is and was no redress for women such as myself and boys such as my son who apparently just have to be glad the chappy has gone and merrily get on with the business of getting up each day.

Math: I did say that UA's XP should have been prosecuted for theft. The lack of an extradition agreement between the UK and Thailand (and some other countries) is something of a problem anyway: many people who have done far worse things than walk out on their families flee from justice to do the far east.
But sometimes some people deserve to be left. People who won't take no for an answer, use emotional blackmail to try to keep a partner who wants to be rid of them, people who simply won't go away - there are cases when abrupt abandonment is reasonable (though theft is not, generally.)

I thnk it's a dreadful idea to set up some sort of legal sanctions (other than the CSA which is at least in theory fair enough) against people who leave relationships against their partner's wishes. Because such sanctions would inevitably, and very quickly, be used against people fleeing seriously abusive partners. I said that theft is generally unacceptable when leaving a relationship, but if someone has been in a relationship with a financial abuser and, in order to escape, takes money or even a credit card, then it would be worrying if prosecutions were the order of the day for that.

It feels as though you are casting aspersions on me sgb, and you are probably deliberately missing my point completely in order to make a totally separate observation.

I wonder if you have had some of your books published by Springer?

I'm bitter about what my ex did to me. I am not bitter about the fact that I ''lost'' him; I am bitter that I ever met him at all!

The problem is that by the time he's finsihed with me I had no fight left at all.

UA: I don't know you so therefore not in a position to cast real aspersions on you. You stated in a post on this thread that you think there should be some kind of 'register' for people who leave their relationships. That's a stupid idea.

Posh, look how far you have come my lovely.

Sometimes, being bitter is a good thing. It galvanises you into understanding that you will never let the same shit happen again. (hope the irony is picked up there...)It is also a crap drink far surpassed by pear cider.

SGB you are being daft. I suggested no such thing. You are a clever woman and you understand exactly what I mean I am sure.

Have you ever been married and do you have children?

UA: I have never been married, something of which I am very glad. I always managed to run off when anyone proposed to me. I have a childm whose father is very involved in his life but with whom I neither have nor want a couple-relationship.

SGB seems to have become what I wanted to be when I grew up!!

UA, I read her posts as making general points from your story, rather than presuming to comment on your life particularly.

I agree that a 'register' of abusive partners would be wide open to abuse - so, self-defeating in its purpose. However, I'm not averse to a bit of mud-slinging or sisterly warnings! My new website (if I ever finish it) will include a section for such use and/or abuse. It's inspired by the Bad Boyfriend Club - you can post him there, if you haven't already

Then, sgb, you have little understanding of what I am talking about. With all due respect.

Grace, I have no idea what to say to that.

?? did I say something wrong?
Any slights were unintentional, UA

Were there any early-doors sisterly warnings re gary glitter or Josef Fritzl?

I specifically said that I was being specific in the same way that there are specific laws for some sorts of specific criminal activities.

What SGB seems to be saying is that I had it coming and probably contributed to it (and therefore so did H's son??) and the rest of us seem to think that 'karma' is enough.

I do not, in my specific situatiion - and there are many many women who have been through the same.

Thailand. The sex capital of the world. Why should the Thais have to suffer him?

UA, in your situation, I would have been very tempted to arrange for my own particular brand of karma, IYSWIM

I know that comment isn't remotely helpful to you, but I just wanted to say it

AF, I have had many thoughts about giving him my own kind of karma. Double

But once I recovered from the brutality of his treatment of us, I came to see that it is my job to stay living, to try to have a nice life for myself as far as possible and, most importantly, to create a happy and secure childhood for my wonderful boy.

None of the above however, will ever stop me thinking that my former husband should be banged up.

SGB I must point out, my ex husband did not commit theft. He raided our joint account. He stole our joint account savings. He did nothing 'wrong.'

OH! The sisterly warning is the website I linked to. Women post details of their abusive exes.

And, yes, I have met men like your ex. I should imagine many of us have.

"But sometimes some people deserve to be left. People who won't take no for an answer, use emotional blackmail to try to keep a partner who wants to be rid of them, people who simply won't go away - there are cases when abrupt abandonment is reasonable (though theft is not, generally.)"

Deserve? Sounds a bit moralistic SGB?

What you're saying is that one person may unilaterally dump someone else, no strings attached and no questions asked, depending only on how they feel and taking no other consideration into account -- maybe fine by your books, but not many people, I venture to say, hold your values or feel your instincts when it comes to relationships. It's no crime, nor is it unreasonable, to ask to be treated with decency and respect, even when a relationship has broken down. I don't know how you handled the communication of the end of the relationship part with the exes who wanted to marry you, but I'll guess you did it as an adult would, and didn't take the first plane to Thailand, there to wallow in your own crapulence.

UA's exH entered into the relationship, took part in it, exhibited horrible behaviour (that was also a feature of his professional life) and then committed a serious crime. This is clearly not a case of someone reasonable getting away from some harpy determined to sink her claws into him and force him to play house whether he liked it or not. And he also washed his hands of financial responsibility for his child -- what did the child do to deserve being left? Too much poo? Emotional blackmail?

MA: I was not implying that UA, specifically, deserved to be left and robbed by her XP. I was actually thinking of another thread on here (which may have been a troll) where the poster started out lamenting her XP's cruelty and it gradually became clear that he had been trying to end the relationship for ages and she was simply refusing to listen to anything he said.
ANd, aside from sorting out financial/property/childcare issues when ending a relationship, I do think that anyone has the right to just end it and walk if they want to. No adult is entitled to a relationship with any other adult. Some people do use unecessary cruelty when it comes to extricating themselves from relatinships, other people behave very badly in refusing to let a partner go. Look at the threads on here from posters who have left unsatisfactory or downright horrible people only to be continually stalked and harassed with threats by the dumped one to kill the one who left/the DC/him/herself.
People have to be free to walk away and cut contact with those they no longer want anything to do with. I often remind posters with klingon XPs that it's OK both legally and morally to cut contact between XP and themselves entirely: if contact between XP and DCs is feasible and desirable, it can be done through a third party.

It seems to me that what some posters on this thread are sort of advocating is something along the lines of 'men who dump women for other women should be prosecuted.' Now how could that be made into any kind of legal or civil requirement that couldn't be used against women fleeing abusive men? And how could you possibly enact such a gendered law when sometimes women abruptly dump harmless men and indeed some women (though not very many) are seriously abusive to their male partners.
ANd how would you enact such a law/requirement WRT civil partnerships?

There are already laws in place WRT fair settlements over property etc when a couple separate; even if these don't always work properly, there are better answers to the problem than adding new laws based entirely on emotion.

SGB, I can see your point that sauce for the gander is also potentially sauce for the goose. And I agree that tough cases make bad laws. Yes, there's nothing to stop slander of others on any informal site. (Hence many lawsuits, afaik) So maybe extradition treaties, or some way to garnish wages even though someone has put half the globe between him and his responsibilities would work better?

I think reasonable people (non-stalkers, people intent on just picking up the pieces and getting on with their lives) would be happy to see a little justice, not to mention a little help with their bills, rather than exacting dire revenge -- nothing wrong with having some sort of revenge fantasy though. I also think it's ultimately in the best financial interests of society to make people pay according to their legal responsibility. I don't know how much in welfare payments could be saved if a little was spent on international enforcement of financial obligations to abandoned children.

wtf?

"People have to be free to walk away and cut contact with those they no longer want anything to do with. I often remind posters with klingon XPs that it's OK both legally and morally to cut contact between XP and themselves entirely: if contact between XP and DCs is feasible and desirable, it can be done through a third party."

you are one sad person sgb

"I often remind posters...."

Thanks

"As I said, I have seen a lot of your posts on the subject and there is something I think you ought to consider, which is that you may have played some part in what happened to you. I am getting the impression that you were, for whatever reason, absolutely desperate and determined to hold on to a relationship with a man who was never that keen in the first place. He seems to have treated you with cruelty and indifference for some time before his departure: I don;t know what damage might have been done to you by others to put you in the mindset that a crap relationship should be held on to at all costs, but a lot of people would have said 'good riddance' to the man long ago."

"I think you are also in danger of damaging your son by your bitterness about your ex. I'd say the less you tell him about his dad the better tbh. "

Disgusting words and twisting of the point of this thread by two posters here. Blame the victim , why don't you?

It's interesting that Emotional Abuse can be described in detail by WA and other organistations... indeed lists of the tactics and methodology used by Emotional Abusers are regularly posted on this site.

'How to spot an Emotional Abuser' is a regular thread title on this very site. It is the Abusers who are damaged, and it is the Abusers who are to blame. They conform to patterns of behaviour that can be predicted, and they are very, very clever in their methods.

The reason that this problem has been passed down through the generations is that people DID keep quiet about it. It WAS pushed under the carpet in families, and the victims DID keep quiet out of shame.,, as in 'the less said about his dad the better'.

So not only are we, the victims to blame in some way for our treatment, we are not now permitted to tell our children what their fathers are really like, but have to construct some other reality in case we come across as bitter and twisted old hags who tried to hang on to a man like limpets.

Of course people are entitled to leave relationships. I left mine, more than once. And I was stalked and threatened by one ex partner.

The problem is that emtional abuse not only harms partners it also harms the children of those relationships. Are they to blame for their situations too?

I tried to warn the new partner of my Ex-H just what he is really like. She wouldn't listen. But the court saw the real him....all seven men who were in there in their professional capacities. All shocked at his behaviour and attitude.

But he made me look like a raving lunatic at times. The face they present to the outside world is charming, reasonable and calm.

I agree totally that there should be some way of warning others about these people, but I have no idea how it would work in practice.

But I do know that blaming the victim is not the way forward. That is a shocking thing to do.

And I can say categorically that UA is not at all bitter, and is a remarkable person who has made a life for herself and her beautiful son despite all the shit that came her way.