Thinking of leaving H due to 'emotional affair'

[loves2walk]

I have posted here twice before about my suspicions that my H was having an affair. Since we moved to a different city almost 2 years ago our relationship has changed and we've been through a very stressful few months. I have no evidence that he did have an affair but there was an admission of a mutual attraction between H and the suspected OW one night (which he told me about himself). They then continued to spend time together out of work (but often with other work people) getting very drunk etc.and going to football together occasionally on a saturday. I was really threatened by this but my concerns were dismissed by H and so I put up with things that worried me when I should have dealt with it by discussing boundaries etc. and being assertive.

However, I feel he has now 'come back to me' and wants to be let back in. I think their 'affair' is over.

BUT he is still texting her and emailing in a friendly, bantor sort of way and just today he lied to me about something to do with her. I can access his blackberry so see messages between them though he doesn't know this. This 'lie', while over a relatively innocent thing, is bothering me so much today as I think it is evidence that they have secrets from me.

I have spoken with a Relate counsellor who understood my desperate need for 'evidence' but said (as people here have) that I don't need evidence if I feel he is having an emotional affair that is enough.

I'm now seriously thinking of leaving him. This is a massive deal though as my home town is a long way away, a flight away, and DSs would have to change schools and start afreash when DS1 already did that 2 years ago. So I would be moving a 9yr old who had moved schools/town at 7yrs already. That feels cruel to me and I'm worried will cause real distress to him. I don't want to stay here as I was completely new here 2 yrs ago and even though I have built up some really good friends through the DSs school, they are friends of our little family unit of 4 - not my personal friends IYSWIM. And no family support here at all.

Also without evidence, I will be seen as the one breaking up the marriage, surely and that really bothers me. That I will have to tell family and friends the whole sorry story and hope they can understand why the emotional affair was enough reason to take such a major step of breaking up a family.

I feel in so deep with this dilemma but I cannot imagine how I can forgive my H the ongoing deceit and 'let him back in'. I could have maybe forgiven infidelity if I was given a chance to, but I'm not even being allowed the luxury of deciding that.

Loves, I fear you're going to get a few posts that might miss the point here, as so often happens when the subject of opposite sex friendships some up.

This is quite simple really. The boundary is that he doesn't pursue a friendship with this woman, or indeed anyone for whom there is a mutual, admitted attraction. That's what always made this an unsafe friendship.

If this woman had been a friend to your marriage and wished it no harm, the collegiate and friendly drinks you describe would have been no problem whatsoever. This is not about being unreasonably jealous and possessive, it is about recognising threats when they exist.

FWIW though, my boundaries about myself have changed in recent years. I used to think that a friendship with someone who fancied me but whom I didn't fancy, was okay.

I don't now, because I've faced up to an uncomfortable truth that such friendships are often about an ego boost and are sometimes not very kind to the other person, who might be hoping for circumstances to change. And whilst both my H and I have had a lttle giggle over the years about the crushes some people have clearly had on us, if I was honest I wouldn't want my H developing a friendship with a woman who was clearly smitten with him, so I don't have different standards for myself.

So I think a useful rule of thumb is - what boundaries would you put on yourself and your friendships with other men? What boundaries would you each expect the other to have? Are there any double-standards that need challenging?

Yes, I get it - its about recognising threats when they exist, and this clearly is a threat, so it is OK to have really narrow boundaries for this situation. For this woman.

It doesn't mean we need the same boundaries for other non-threatening friendships.

H is and will struggle to really really enter the situation-reversed thing. I just don't think he can truly get into that space. There is so much that is different about us. He knows I stick to honesty as closely as I can in all situations - like telling kids about things - he will often suggest making up some convoluted story which is infact a complete lie, when all that is needed is to spend some time finding an explanation that is understandable to them, and as close to the truth as is possible. We have said before how 'funny' it is that he has no qualms about lying, he admits this and will for example lie to his family outrageously about why he can't attend an event say, rather than only tell little white lies to protect others feelings.

So sorry to ramble - he completely trusts me. He knows I would never be unfaithful. Simple as that. Therefore he is telling me his boundaries are fairly wide and he's OK with that. So I then will be cast as overly jealous wife being unreasonable and yet again I'm the one with the problem.

Not just this woman, but anyone for whom there is an attraction; mutual or one-sided in either direction.

I can see your problem reversing this and agree that given your exemplary character and his trust in you, he could exploit his complacency (for this is what it is) and quite glibly say that even if you were in the same bed as another man, he wouldn't mind...

But perhaps you can revert back to what you find acceptable and respectful, your own moral code about this. The reason he is able to be so bloody complacent is because you've never given him anything to worry about. Mirror some of the words he has been using himself - respect, trust etc. This is not you being unreasonable.

How interesting regarding the unnecessary but elaborate lying. It rings huge bells with me as it will with Counting, so hope she comes along. My H and I used to have almost identical conversations about explanations to the DCs, or to others, where my vote was for tactful honesty and his was for a convoluted explanation involving numerous untruths. My wishes always prevailed where I could have an input and I would say that this is one of the most significant changes in my H. Now, his first instinct is to tell people how it is.

Casual lying is actually a pretty big red flag in relationships and I wish I'd realised this years ago. Perhaps bizarrely, I never read much into it because it was generally lying about unimportant things - and I never thought he'd lie to me...so like you, we used to laugh about it and I used to tease him for being so crap at confrontation or saying no to people or things.

So amongst the other things to tackle, I'd add complacency and lying to the list!

NOt sure about the exemplary character - H has many reasons to be unhappy about aspects of me but they aren't things that threaten the core values of the relationship IMO. Just stuff like he hates how untidy I am and how I (used to) spend the evening on the phone to girlfriends - now it's the computer at night and he hates that too!

As I've said before he can be bullying in his approach and though he is a million miles away from that right now, I find it hard to be assertive when faced with the constant pushing of a bully. So I will be repeating some of these comments as mantras 'I am not being unreasonable'. At least he is open to hearing me now.

The casual lying is so telling isn't it? Your H has made enormous progress if he has been able to change that because it almost feels like a core personality thing.

My H talked about it with his counsellor - and a lot wiith me - and I think he has emerged almost as though he's had cognitive behavioural therapy. He pauses for a second before responding to things now, recognises the instinct to fib, then makes a conscious decision not to. He says the pay-offs are enormous, because life is much simpler and we have both noticed that others respond to him better, because they know where they stand with him. As with anything, there were a few slip-ups along the way, but we talked about them and I can't remember the last time I had concerns about this.

Good for him WWIFN. I'm all for a simpler life and would agree about how it makes life easier . The times I am economical with the truth I feel I have to watch what I say so closely incase I slip up.

Was just thinking that H's biggest criticism of me is probably that I don't take responsibility - that I always try to find excuses and blame others when things go wrong. But I aways say it is HIM that is like that not me. Noone has ever told me that before, whereas I have been told for yrs that I am lazy and untidy. Surely if a criticism was justified a person would have that feeling of 'oh I'm always being got-at for that'.

I even asked my mum one time if I didn't take reposnsibility for things enough. She just laughed and couldn't understand why I would think that.

Maybe that deflecting ones faults onto others is part of this not being honest problem

I really feel for your situation. Me and my DH were in a similar situation with one of his work colleagues. I shan't bore you with the details but the gist of it was that he met this woman on a dating site but nothing ever happened between them. He then met me literally a few weeks later. OW became his business partner and has been ever since.

Although nothing has ever happened between them (she was never interested), he found her very attractive and found her lifestyle and philosophy more akin to his own at the time than mine. This led to some horrid situations where I was actively ignored in situations in her favour, etc. As this caused big problems between us, he then attempted to cheat on me, which I found out about before it happened and put a stop to.

I eventually had to draw some boundaries. He can't not work with her but I put huge restrictions on what he could do outside work - no socialising with her in ANY capacity unless it was essential, i.e. work Xmas do, no discussion of our personal life or hers. Basically, I told him that he could work with her but that was IT - I wouldn't tolerate their friendship.

The way I see it is that whilst I can put what happened behind me and I totally trust him now (this was years ago and many things have changed since then), I can't forget what happened and I can't bear having to remember every time I see her. I don't want him to encourage her to be in our lives because I don't want to deal with her. Selfish? Yes, but HE broke the trust and this is what I needed in order to move forward so he had a choice, do it or move along.

On balance, he eventually gained a marriage and his son (and the one on the way!), which I know he wouldn't trade in for anyone and, whilst he can't really understand why I felt the way I did, he understands that what he was doing was wrong and is sorry for it.

Don't suppose that's of much relevance but your situation resonates with me

I should add that I also demanded access to his email, phone, etc. I needed to be able to KNOW, as much as one ever can, that he was telling me the truth

thanks squitten - it really helps to hear how others have had to deal with similar stuff

I will at some stage demand his is open about his phone but am reluctant to right now as I think we need to go slowly with this.

just reading through this and it sounds familiar to me. My husband was sending over three hundred texts a month to a female colleague - amongst many other things. When confronted, after months and him having her number store under a male name on his phone he asked me " Whats the problem, we are only friends" in an aggresive way. Well why lie about it and keep it secret. Its the lies and secrects and suspecting that ruined our marriage. I kicked him out five months ago, we went to relate and unfortunately it did not work, it just confirmed to me that he had to go. At that time i had a four month old and a three and a half year old. Sad as it is he had to go. I deserve better. And i am sure so do all the women who put up with this rubbish.

just reading through this and it sounds familiar to me. My husband was sending over three hundred texts a month to a female colleague - amongst many other things. When confronted, after months and him having her number store under a male name on his phone he asked me " Whats the problem, we are only friends" in an aggresive way. Well why lie about it and keep it secret. Its the lies and secrects and suspecting that ruined our marriage. I kicked him out five months ago, we went to relate and unfortunately it did not work, it just confirmed to me that he had to go. At that time i had a four month old and a three and a half year old. Sad as it is he had to go. I deserve better. And i am sure so do all the women who put up with this rubbish.

I have been watching your threads loves2, and am so sorry that your husband still doesn't seem to be getting it.

Just a thought, can you insist he needs to get a new job? Or at least request a transfer in his current workplace? The interaction with this woman who he admits there was mutual attraction with is a problem - it is undermining your relationship and it is not unreasonable for you to request that contact stops. There is a common thread throughout your posts that he has to deal with her through work. What is he didn't??

Sorry to hear of your awful time ellam, thats sounds really tough especially with a baby and pre-schooler. Hope things are calm for you. Five months isn't long to re-adjust so I'm sure it must still be hard. Sounds a brave step you took.

I could leave my H over this, I know I could. But I want to try and make it work mainly because I love him nearly as much now as I did when we first decided to get married. 'Nearly' because all this crap and uncertainty is chipping away at that love.

Thanks pot, I don't think him moving is an option though I have asked him. We moved here 2 yrs ago for his career and because of all this, I am keen to move back nearer to my parents and family. So we're talking about that. There is one possibility of a move, but it is faint hope right now.

I don't think he is taking it as seriously he I want him to. He's being all sweetness and light but there is not nearly enough reflection. The only one that brings it up is me and i want him to do more earnest soul searching. His relate session is tomorrow and then we can go into couple counselling so I'm hoping that will focus his mind and give our discussions some structure

We had our most positive talk so far about these boundaries etc last night. Turned out he does think I could/might have an affair. He is infact quite jealous about other guys. I didn't think this at all.

He does say things in a jokey way, but I dismiss them as just that, a joke. But it all came out and he listed several men that he actually has felt threatened by. They were all guys I like and some were guys I've daydreamed about.

So we then talked about real specific situations - like a school dad was over yesterday picking up his son, and I invited him in for a cup of tea and we had a friendly, funny chat for 40 mins. H was asking would I have changed that if I felt he fancied me. When I said 'definately yes' he was surprised and pushed me to describe this. It seemed a revelation to him that I would adapt MY behaviour so much if I felt I was going to get into tricky water. So I then described a Dad at school that I do feel wary of as he makes a point of chatting to me and is a bit flirty (even comes over to me when his DW is clearly struggling to manage their reception child, toddler & baby). I avoid this guy as much as I can and pray my DS2 doesn't get into a best friend thing with their DS. H was genuinely interested in this and so we had our longest, most illuminating conversation about safe and unsafe friendships.

He is also saying he will be fine at stopping all non-work contact with OW. He doesn't think her NEEDS to as the 'attraction' is all water under the bridge, but he will if it makes me feel better.

We are away for the weekend so have lots of travelling time to discuss this. Kids with in-car DVDs, hence earphones in, will give us lots of peace

How interesting. He's a bit useless at this sort of stuff then. Sounds like a good step forward, keep going!!!

Interesting Loves and good to know he's not quite as complacent as you'd thought!

Did you ask him about how he'd felt having such an ardent admirer - and what stopped him?

We have made some huge progress. H has admitted an emotional affair - by my defination of what it is and the Relate counsellor describing it too. He is saying (and acting like) he is feeling terrible about this and wants to be different. He can now see how he would have not tolerated what I have done, and how it would have eaten away at him. He is trying so hard and I am keeping him at a bit of a distance, but doing lots of listening and challenging and 'testing' of him I suppose.

He was flattered by being admired, WWIFN and he admits that it was compelling and he enjoyed the bantor they had and the bit of escapism it offered. But he still denies it was physical. His whole 'being' looks as though he is gutted about how he's been and I feel he means it.

However, actions speak louder......I have listened to all those very sensible voices on here and I won't be slow to recognise a problem and act next time if I need to.

Thanks for the very personal and challenging words and 'push' that I needed to get out of my comfort zone and tackle this problem. I have no doubt I wouldn't have made anything like this progress without this support

I'm so glad to read all this Loves. Have you managed to ask him what made him pull back from an affair?

I have WWIFN - and I get a very long explanation of how he has screwed up before and doesn't want that to happen again, how he loves me and always has and doesn't want to betray me and my trust and how he loves our kids and family life and wouldn't risk that.

What I wonder is what would have happened had I 'forced the issue' back when it was all at it's height? I let it fester along for months in my frozen state, not having discovered MN!, and not being able to phone any of my friends about it.

Then when I did start to deal with it, through getting lots of advice on here and starting to speak with my brother and 2 best friends, I still took a few months to get to the crisis point of speaking with solicitor/planning to leave, confronting H.

I think my getting to this stage coincided with him realising how much he had to loose and by that point he had already 'downsized' the relationship/friendship/affair. So it is almost easy for him to show through actions how OW is no threat, because I think whatever was between them is over.

However, I am empowered now. I really feel this. I know my rights, I know how I go about starting a DV, I understand my financial situation better and I am no longer fearful/frozen about going down that road. My family and close friends will all understand and support me and I find MN a source of huge support. So if there is ever a next time, I will be more assertive, sooner.

OW is coming here tomorrow for an evening meal with some other colleagues - a long standing arrangement- so I will be watching her. She has said she will be getting a taxi home which means she plans on drinking, so I have decided to remain on water for the evening just so I can check things out.

Yes, I can relate to what you say about it's perhaps easier for him to put in boundaries now, probably because the newness of the friendship with OW has worn off and her allure has diminished. As you know, when I made my discovery, H had well and truly gone off OW too and therefore it was no sacrifice to give her up. I too used to wonder how much more difficult that would have been for him if discovery had taken place in the infatuation stage.

I'd be intrigued to hear how the dinner party goes and how he is in terms of affection and respect towards you while she is around. You're wise to stay on water, whereas I've got the feeling that OW might make a bit of an arse of herself...

I am just so glad it has turned out this way. You are in a much better position than you were a year ago, when this was bubbling away prior to the summer holidays.
You have learned so much I think about yourself, as well as all the empowering things about your options in life. And like I said to you in one of my very early posts on your original thread, he is learning so much too, more than perhaps he ever thought possible at his age.

I think you'll have achieved the counselling's full potential when you have a shared understanding about fidelity and the walls around your marriage, so that those windows are never ajar or opened again to someone who means your marriage harm.

Well done Loves - I just couldn't be happier for you.

Thanks so much WWIFN for such a kind thing to say - it is great to have life back on an even keel again.

I was mischieviously delighted when I heard from H that OW was taxi-ing tomorrow night, not that I'm usually one to delight in other peoples discomfort, but I feel suitably justified in this one! She has no choice but to turn up, but I imagine she might be a tad stressed by the whole thing.

xxx