Thinking of leaving H due to 'emotional affair'

[loves2walk]

I have posted here twice before about my suspicions that my H was having an affair. Since we moved to a different city almost 2 years ago our relationship has changed and we've been through a very stressful few months. I have no evidence that he did have an affair but there was an admission of a mutual attraction between H and the suspected OW one night (which he told me about himself). They then continued to spend time together out of work (but often with other work people) getting very drunk etc.and going to football together occasionally on a saturday. I was really threatened by this but my concerns were dismissed by H and so I put up with things that worried me when I should have dealt with it by discussing boundaries etc. and being assertive.

However, I feel he has now 'come back to me' and wants to be let back in. I think their 'affair' is over.

BUT he is still texting her and emailing in a friendly, bantor sort of way and just today he lied to me about something to do with her. I can access his blackberry so see messages between them though he doesn't know this. This 'lie', while over a relatively innocent thing, is bothering me so much today as I think it is evidence that they have secrets from me.

I have spoken with a Relate counsellor who understood my desperate need for 'evidence' but said (as people here have) that I don't need evidence if I feel he is having an emotional affair that is enough.

I'm now seriously thinking of leaving him. This is a massive deal though as my home town is a long way away, a flight away, and DSs would have to change schools and start afreash when DS1 already did that 2 years ago. So I would be moving a 9yr old who had moved schools/town at 7yrs already. That feels cruel to me and I'm worried will cause real distress to him. I don't want to stay here as I was completely new here 2 yrs ago and even though I have built up some really good friends through the DSs school, they are friends of our little family unit of 4 - not my personal friends IYSWIM. And no family support here at all.

Also without evidence, I will be seen as the one breaking up the marriage, surely and that really bothers me. That I will have to tell family and friends the whole sorry story and hope they can understand why the emotional affair was enough reason to take such a major step of breaking up a family.

I feel in so deep with this dilemma but I cannot imagine how I can forgive my H the ongoing deceit and 'let him back in'. I could have maybe forgiven infidelity if I was given a chance to, but I'm not even being allowed the luxury of deciding that.

Thanks, amazon. Comments on here are a huge support to me.

I asked him for space last night and said I was too tired and drained for discussion so would sleep in spare room. He kept trying to start a discussion because he is very scared about what is going on in my head. I just refused nicely and told him I was hurting as much as he was.

Wanted to scream that I've been hurting this badly for 10 long months. But didn't. Kept thinking 'white wine please' and went to bed at 8pm with papers.

He wrote me a letter last night which is so pained. He desperately loves me and claims to have no idea why we are in such a bad place. He says maybe he has taken me for granted so badly for so long and he will do everything he can to fix this.

BUT STILL NO CONFESSION. Either I have this totally wrong and am now being cruel to him. Or he is completely refusing to confront the truth.

He is sticking close to me today, wanted to get later bus into work so we could talk, wanted big hug and broke down in tears. BUT STILL NO FUCKING CONFESSION.

I am totally muddled all over again. I love him so much, but hate this deceit. I could forgive infidelity but he is pushing me so much with this deceit I may never be able to forgive him. Why can't he grab his chance and come clean.

Hmm.. this seems like a bit of a watershed moment, Loves, in that this seems like the first time he has wanted a discussion.

One of the reasons I'm glad you've spoken to a counsellor and also your friends and family is that you've had your feelings validated - and it's not just us on MN feeling you've been right to be suspicious.

Could you ask him again about the issues you feel he's lied about i.e. that they only ever speak of work and football? Perhaps ask him whether they have recently had a drink on their own after work that you haven't known about? If he says "no definitely not" you could ask whether she was present at the drink he had with his two male colleagues? Mention the date of this too, so there is no confusion - and if you've kept any texts (which are dated) from him telling you he was going for a drink, even better.

If he says "no, she wasn't there" then how do you think he'd react if you produced the receipt that after all, you could have innocently found in his pockets? If he claims that the wine was for one of these male colleagues, you can either just tell him that you now know he is lying to you, or more dangerously, reveal how you know this.

Also, how long was this drink? Getting a receipt in a pub sounds unusual too, is the name of the place on the receipt? Could it have been a hotel, for example?

To do this Loves, you've got to be very sure of the date and that it matches up with what you've found - but given how worried you are about this, that would be worth establishing certainty about what ever happens.

It amazes me in some ways that he hasn't at least admitted that he was wrong to have engaged in an unsafe friendship - and that he isn't doing more about trying to put distance between them now that he knows she causes you so much pain. Did you ever get round to asking him what happened to the feelings of attraction he declared for her last August? That question has always felt like the elephant in the room throughout your story....

Thanks WWIFN for replying. In reverse order - I worry that the reason he hasn't ever admitted the friendship is a threat or unsafe is because then he would have to stop it. Maybe much as he does love me and our life, maybe he also loves her and loves the double life bit. This is like a watershed - he is genuinely distressed.

I am totally sure of date. The receipt is from a hotel bar where he was meeting these 2 guys, work visitors. OK fine, but on mobile to me 5 mins earlier than receipt, he said 'I'm calling to say goodnight to boys. I'm on my way to meet xx and xx . Oh sorry got to go xx is approaching me'. Then bought these 2 drinks. And her text to him was 'white wine please' 5 mins before he phoned me. So they were both walking to the hotel bar from different directions and he must have seen her. Then they did all go for dinner a bit later, the dinner receipt was timed for approx 1030pm which must be when they left the restaurant, then there were a stream of texts between them about him 'hopping into a taxi' at 1226am. They were surely alone after meal. Because I'd questionned why he was so late home from a work dinner - 1245am - he told me a direct lie the next morning in that he said OW had texted him at 1220 to say thank you for the meal and she had got xx and xx home safely in her cab. There was no such text on his system and that was quite an elaborate lie to construct to minimise my feelings of threat. He did admit she was at the meal but said 'oh she just turned up' and left it hanging. The booking did not include her originally as I saw her email to him confirming the table for 3 people. So she sort of muscled in and he allowed/encouraged it.

Sorry that is so involved but it is all in the detail.

OK I am going to think about your suggested approach WWIFN. We can't go on in this misery so this helps. I could ask him about the drink and what they discuss.

BUT if he admits to it, he will then minimise it's importance, say he didn't want to worry me etc etc and I'll have no more evidence so no way of getting more truth from him. My sneeky way of not saying how much 'evidence' I have is the only way I feel he will confess. Without that uncertainty he will confess to what he has to, and then go for damage limitation.

Can you see WWIFN that what I'm really worried about is that I'll never really know what happened unless I do this in a sneeky way?

The reason he told me she had sent him a text at 1220 re: thanks for dinner(which is not on his system), is we were disputing the time he got home. I know for sure my clock said 1245 but he said 'oh no I was home about midnight'. I said no it was 1245. Then he did a sort of wierd over-proving of his story, and sent me a text on his way into work - saying oh look this confirms the time i got home, OW sent me this text at 1220 and I was home when I got it. Stupid stupid lies to cover up other lies.

The elephant in the room - I did ask him and he blundered about saying they have nothing in common except work and football, conversation dries up after that and he told me 'yes I can see she is attractive, I mean she is shaggable, but no I don't want to anything to happen' blah blah blah. I really winced, describing her as 'shaggable'.

How certain can you be that the two colleagues were actually there? Do you know the name of the restaurant and if so, is there any way you could check the booking with them, to establish how many people turned up for that table? I don't know if you could pull this off, but you could phone the restaurant and pretend to be a fictitious company checking an expense claim for four meals when you're fairly sure that only two people attended...

Do you think there's any possibility that they checked into the hotel instead? Any unusual cash withdrawals around this time, or credit card statements? How was the restaurant bill settled by him - is there a receipt for what looks like 4 meals?

Now that OW did legitimately attend that night out, I'd have to revise my earlier advice as he could claim that he hadn't even thought to mention she'd turned up earlier, I suppose?

I was just reading your original thread. It seems to explain everything really well and really makes your worries and doubts seem very valid. Is there any way you could show this original letter to H, maybe telling him that this is how you feel and you don't want to hear any response from him for say, a couple of days then you'll be willing to talk.

To me it seems that whether you have evidence or not this is a big issue of broken trust. If he's not prepared then to confess whatevernthere is to confess (which might not actually be much) then make all his email accounts / appointments etc open to you as a way to start regaining this trust then there's a big problem.

In the past you say you just let things go when you should have set boundaries and been assertive. Maybe now is the time to show you are serious.

This sounds a bit direct but I speak from experience. I was the one having the emotional affair and my DH confronted me with "the evidence". Some of it was completely innocent but other bits weren't. Before that I had justified it in my mind, but then I was so horrified at the thought of hurting dh I came clean about it all, cut off all contact immediately with OM and made all my email / fb account open to dh. 5 Years later I think our relationship has more trust and less suspicion. I know I now think differently about my other frienships.

Thanks WWIFN for your ongoing thoughts. I saw the restaurant receipt the next morning and there were 4 of them and it gave the time of the bill which indicates to me the time they left the restaurant. They left two and half hours before he got a taxi home.

He did tell me voluntarily that OW had attended the meal. But the lie was that he said he was meeting the 2 guys for a drink then he bought her and him a drink. And he then created this fictitious text to cover up for the time he'd got home. So on it's own, just a bit odd, but I feel pretty confident it is enough to claim as 'evidence' if I need to, given the past.

Thanks forty I am planning now to confront him tonight and have written down things but I'll go back over that thread to include everything I've been feeling. I like the idea of giving him a couple of days before asking for a return discussion. I don't need to go on seeking evidence. I phoned a family law solicitor today and she said I have enough to claim unreasonable behaviour if I wish to go down this route. I could file for divorce tomorrow. I will tell H that but give him couple of days to consider my need for the truth before I take that step.

The Relate counsellor is now booked all this week so that is going to delay my 'safe haven' for discussion. I just have to do this myself and not put it off any longer.

I am so glad I didn't last night though as I was so tired. I need to take this at my pace and all this time elapsing is increasing H's anxiety which, I'm sad to say, is a good thing.

Loves - really feel for you. A while ago, found over 80 text messages between H and female work colleague - work banter type stuff. Made me feel very uncomfortable but H said I was being paranoid and unreasonable. The started to lie saying he hadn't heard from her when I knew he had. He also told me she had moved to a different office but failed to say she got moved back...He knows I have checked his messages and now hides phone from me which just makes me suspicious. The trust is completely gone and I amnow wondering if the marriage is over as a result -

so sorry to hear that ebo - it is really hard when you're suspicious all the time.

I can't go on without trust, I have been doing so for months and they've been horrid months. So now this issue is being forced, really forced and only good thing is at least it'll be over one way or another within next few days

Mt Relate counsellor has a really good take on it - the whole unsafe friendship thing. Could you go down that route ebo to try and tackle this?

Just wanted to say you sound like a lovely person, and mum. Strong too in the face of what's going on. He's clearly up to no good (between dinner and coming home the other night), and he doesn't deserve you.
Being cold and firm is your best tool with him I hope you use it well. Sending you big hugs x

Loves2walk, I have lurked on this thread and contributed on your last one

I haven't posted here so far, because my only advice to you would have been (just like the last time) to stop prevaricating and force the issue. You have been pussyfooting around for too long.

However, I am happy to see today much more conviction in you. I hope this is finally your tipping point...because this situation cannot carry on any longer without making you ill.

I wish you all the best...and please be strong x

VW...I totally agree that L2W sounds lovely (but far too soft...). I hope that changes today....

Thanks for kind thoughts and comments.

I like the 'lovely' bit and admit to the too soft too. Personality isn't changed easily and I'm probably unassertive in other areas - though I seem to have no problem enforcing the 5 a day fruit rule, 1 hr TV a day and early bedtimes for kids!

Anyway, I am exhausted and completely behind with work due to all this crap going on in marriage.

I confronted H by saying I had concrete evidence that he had lied and betrayed my trust. That I was not prepared to say what it was, that it was my right to keep that to myself but that the solicitor I had spoken to had agreed my evidence was enough to DV on grounds of unreasonable behaviour. (That was not exactly what she said, but she did say I could petition for DV immediately).

I asked him to admit within 24 hrs what had happened, that he had one last chance and that if he was not truthful, I was separating, moving cities and DV. He was totally on his knees, wrecked from it, devastated. He had been upset all the previous day but this just made it all worse. He said he had never taken it beyond a friendship. He admitted it had been a friendship he had pursued even when I'd shown how upset I was and he apologised for that. He felt really guilty, he demonstrated that by how he looked, totally wrecked. He said the penny had dropped for him about how much it had affected me and he had totally taken me for granted and abused my trust in him, not by being unfaithful but by not listening to my concerns.

So this went on for some time. I asked him to explain the night when I had a drinks receipt and his explanation was unusual but without knowing I had this receipt, he explained who had bought drinks for whom, at what time, and it all added up.

So the only thing I have evidence of now which was not explained is the contact about our relationship. I asked did he talk to her about us and he said no never. But I saw an email where he said 'Iv meeting - goodnight!' at 11pm in midst of our discussion. But that is all I have.

He is trying desperately hard to make it right again. He asked for a cancellation at Relate and has cancelled a work meeting so he can take the cancellation that was offered at last minute. He is talking about how we can spend more time together.

I want to let him back in so much.
I want to be free from checking his txts and emails.
I want us to be close and happy together. We remembered some of our really good times last night and we used to laugh so much and just chat so much and I just want that back.

I don't quite know what's going on, I hate ignoring all my instinctive voices from the past year telling me it was not right but I don't want to throw away all we have if things can get back to where they were.

Loves2walk,
I have not been in your position, so am not talking from experience. However, many times i have read threads on here which indicate that after this sort of experience you will not and should not expect to, get back to where you were. What many MNers have said, is that you have to create a new marriage, a new relationship, even though is still between the same two people. And, ultimately, whether you can do that depends on whether both of you are prepared to put a lot of effort into it.

I wish you luck.

It's all about actions Loves2walk. He can talk til the cows come home but he has to back it up with actions for you to be able to move on etc. The Relate thing is good but what is he proposing to do as far as the OW is concerned ? I think action in that regard will speak more than any words that come out of his mouth atm and you know that.

Good luck - BTW he sounds like a man with a hugh sense of entitlement etc. It will take a lot of self reflecting on his part to change to any degree and it will not be overnight.

I didn't really think about that bit - the actions over OW. I need to address that you're right.

It would be so easy to slip back into this marriage by hearing what I want to hear without really changing the reason we got to this horrid place. I mustn't let that happen.

Thanks counting.

Sayithow - I'd love a new relationship with H, a calm peaceful one without the stressed stuff but I'm not sure you can pick and choose which bits of a person you like/dislike. He's a package and it's not all good, but enough of it is to make me think it's worth trying

He's very good Loves2walk (sounds like my DH) - he's managed to avoid talking about OW or how he proposes to deal with that side of things. Be very careful in the Relate sessions, my DH did a very good job of diverting the counsellor onto me and my "issues" and not much was discussed about him. Even the therapist admitted that he was so good (at bullsh*ting) that even she didn't know if he was doing it to her. As I pointed out to him, it was nothing to be proud of .

It's taken my DH many months of self-reflection etc to admit some painful truths to himself and acknowledge some truly awful behaviours from the past and we are 14/15 months down the line. It was some sort of mid life crisis for my DH, there were a lot of issues from his childhood that he had never dealt with, and his behaviours were ingrained from childhood as some sort of coping strategy from that time (ie the lying etc).

Good luck.

But that sounds hopeful though? That even though it has taken a long time, 14 or so months, you feel he has started to address issues from childhood, so maybe he is different in his approach to you? (of course I'm hoping you say he doesn't lie anymore and is good in other ways more condusive to a marriage?!)

I have this flagged up now for our relate sessions, so thanks

Thinking about it Loves2, in a way you have to change for him to realise that, actually, you are not going to put up with his cr*p anymore. ATM he thinks he has done enough without sorting out the "OW" issue ie he's got away with it.

I found that once my DH realised I wasn't going to take what he said at face value anymore and I would only believe actions, then things started to change within him IYSWIM and this happened a while after we finished Relate. It was almost like you have done the worse to me and I am never going to be treated like that again and he seemed to understand that.

One of the handouts the counsellor gave him was "You cannot talk yourself out of something you have behaved yourself into" - probably applies to your H as well

Thanks for the update Loves. Yet again I am reminded of how it is possible to worry about someone I've never even met. Even my H keeps asking how you are!

First of all, well done. That is another watershed moment chalked up; his admission that he was wrong to pursue this friendship and wrong to dismiss your concerns.

Like Counting says, he needs to follow up now with actions. The agreement to go to Relate is one very positive action - will you be able to see the woman you've been speaking to? As you know, it's important to get a counsellor who is on the same page about unsafe friendships.

What are your instincts telling you now Loves about an affair? Do you think he is still lying to you about what happened? In your discussion, did you tell him how you got your proof?

WRT the OW, I'm assuming you want all non-work contact stopped and no more unnecessary interactions about your runs together, his conversations with you, or requests to talk from him. It would be better all round if she moved on tbh, so it might be worth pursuing wih him again if he can encourage that, given that she was pretending she wanted to move jobs a while ago.

I'm assuming there's been nothing on the BB since Monday, when it might have been obvious to OW that he was feeling very low? Might be worth checking with him now whether he has told her anything about your difficulties, or how he passed off his sadness at work.

Don't feel this year has been wasted Loves, if no admission about infidelity comes. If you think he is telling you the truth now that nothing happened, at the very least you have both made progress about unsafe friendships and the threats they produce. And I think he has learned that he cannot any longer behave like a controlling, angry man, because if he does he will lose you.

This is actually a pretty sound platform with which to approach Relate, but as said before, watch his actions, not his words.

You're right counting - I do need to change and express myself sooner and more assertively. That handout sounds ideal for my H. Now his panic has subsided I need to make sure he goes on 'worrying' about our relationship and not just assuming he can get away with whatever he likes.

Thanks WWIFN for thinking of me! The power of MN is amazing - that through giving and receiving advice and opening up to online friends, you get such huge support. I have gained so much by this process. I find it a bit scary too and worry it will come back and bite me, if someone I know, but don't want to know personal stuff, discovers this thread. But I have developed my understanding of relationships and myself so much through all these wonderfully supportive and sometimes detailed and lengthy posts. So thank you all. Oh and I am very impressed by your memory WWIFN - you seem to remember all sorts from earlier threads!

I don't know if I fully believe there has been no sexual contact. I find it hard to believe actually, as all my instincts tell me otherwise. But at same time, I find it hard to believe anyone could lie so convincingly and want to live life with such web of deceit - I know some people are capable of it, but surely not him? If he is still lying it would shatter so many beliefs I have about honesty and decency and love. This is the craziness of it all.

One thing - I'm keen to work on developing boundaries etc. with H so will be stating exactly what I find unacceptable, i.e. all out of work contact etc, like you say WWIFN. But I don't know how to tackle OW boundary issues.

She has 'problems with boundaries' and I heard this from my friend whose H works there and she works in nearby & linked office. So her boundary problems are things like she has nicknames for married men at work and gets close in a over- friendly way. So the way it affects me is things like - last week when H and I were going through this crap, I phoned him one day and he was out so phone diverted to her. She said 'oh he's gone out for some lunch. I'm so glad he's gone as he's in such a grumpy mood, don't know what's up with him today.....' on and on. I felt myself really tensing up, she was really inappropriate to comment on his mood to me.

If I say something to her though, she might get the feeling she's somehow important in all this, and of course I don't want her to feel that, I want her to feel that she does not matter at all to me and I never think of her !

Loves I've been having a bit more of a think.

It sort of goes back to the first post I think I made to you on your original thread, when I told the story about what I thought could have happened. Since then, I've gained a greater understanding from what you've said about your H's character and critically, his age.

It might be worth exploring with him how he felt about OW developing such an attraction to him. I think if he was being honest about his answer, he might say that it felt good being admired, respected and desired by a much younger woman, whom he admits is attractive. If he does, it would be worth you showing some empathy for how addictive those feelings can be and how difficult sometimes they are to give up. I think you might gain some insight into his internal dialogue.

It seems pretty much in the open domain that this woman would have had an affair with him and so it would be insightful to hear from him how he wrestled with that temptation, given that he liked her company, found her attractive and (if he admits feeling flattered) enjoyed the feelings this was giving him.

He was stressed at work and had gone through a major upheaval with a house move and a new city. Some brief escapism from that stress must have been very tempting, especially when the opportunity was right there.

In other words, what stopped him?

I think his answers to these questions could be revealing Loves and might even give you more certainty that nothing happened. You might even be able to get on to a discussion about his former marriage and infidelity.

As you know, I think you both need to have a discussion about your attitudes to fidelity. It is essential if you are to affair-proof your future marriage. You've said you think he might be a "bargainer" but I think he needs to tell you.

I would be sceptical if your H said that he had never wrestled with a dilemma over this and had never been tempted to take things further. His recollection of that decision-making process could be hugely insightful.

Thanks WWIFN. I will go back to that thread and go over your response. But yes I can see having the discussion you spell out here could be illuminating.

I would never expect him NOT to fancy someone else, like I completely understand how he will from time to time fancy other people, as I will do. But yes, it's what sort of internal dialogue he had with himself at that point - how he felt, what alternatives he considered and what stopped him taking it further.

I have also been thinking about how to set boundaries. We have never done this but I know from talking to friends they are really clear about what is and is not acceptable and seem to have no difficulty stating that. I suppose I like to think I'm all very relaxed and accepting of friendships, not possessive at all and if I'm honest I think some of my friends are a bit neurotic about their H's contact with women, and are too 'strict'. I only want H to be with me, if he can see all that's available and it's still me he chooses. Can anyone understand that? I never want him to be with me because he's under the thumb and has no personal freedom.

So setting boundaries is going to be hard for me. How do other people manage and where do you draw the line?

So for instance, H and OW have reason to walk to another building for a work meeting every few weeks and this building is in town near pubs etc. Sometimes this is mid afternoon, then they go for a drink after meeting, before H comes home. So he is home at usual time. But I think I want to say this is unacceptable. OK, so his reaction may be great, he will not do that anymore.

Or he may say I'm being ridiculous, they get a chance to talk about work outside the office so perhaps wider issues covered and I should trust him to just be able to sit in a pub for half an hour. He may tell me I am making way too big a deal out of nothing.

How do other people deal with those sort of practical boundary setting stuff?

Thanks WWIFN. I will go back to that thread and go over your response. But yes I can see having the discussion you spell out here could be illuminating.

I would never expect him NOT to fancy someone else, like I completely understand how he will from time to time fancy other people, as I will do. But yes, it's what sort of internal dialogue he had with himself at that point - how he felt, what alternatives he considered and what stopped him taking it further.

I have also been thinking about how to set boundaries. We have never done this but I know from talking to friends they are really clear about what is and is not acceptable and seem to have no difficulty stating that. I suppose I like to think I'm all very relaxed and accepting of friendships, not possessive at all and if I'm honest I think some of my friends are a bit neurotic about their H's contact with women, and are too 'strict'. I only want H to be with me, if he can see all that's available and it's still me he chooses. Can anyone understand that? I never want him to be with me because he's under the thumb and has no personal freedom.

So setting boundaries is going to be hard for me. How do other people manage and where do you draw the line?

So for instance, H and OW have reason to walk to another building for a work meeting every few weeks and this building is in town near pubs etc. Sometimes this is mid afternoon, then they go for a drink after meeting, before H comes home. So he is home at usual time. But I think I want to say this is unacceptable. OK, so his reaction may be great, he will not do that anymore.

Or he may say I'm being ridiculous, they get a chance to talk about work outside the office so perhaps wider issues covered and I should trust him to just be able to sit in a pub for half an hour. He may tell me I am making way too big a deal out of nothing.

How do other people deal with those sort of practical boundary setting stuff?