Male Entitlement - Dittany, SGB, AF, BOF and all others please explain to me.....

[shimmerysilverglitter]

in simple terms why a man who has:

Shagged around on his wife throughout their marriage
Used prostitutes during the marriage
Controlled his wife/partner by making her fear his verbal and physical tirades
Kept his wife short of money causing her to claim benefits fraudulently just to live while he kept all his wages to himself
Pawned all their stuff to go out on the piss
Done not a jot of housework
Made his wife feel worthless by ignoring her dreams, ambitions and opinions

This is all stuff I have read on MN recently.

Still thinks he should be living in the family home with his wife and children.

I really want to understand, I really do.

I know some of you have done degrees in Women's Studies and subjects like that and some of you just have the life experience so I would like to hear how your knowledge relates to a man like this.

I'm not any of those people, but it's because he hasn't been shown forcefully enough that if he does those things there will be consequences.

It's like some kind of emotional blindness isn't it? this relentless entitlement based on absolutely no input what so ever from them.

I'll be watching to see what the wise ones come up with.

I got 'told' today from DH (that does JACK in my house, family etc), that he is the HEAD of the family and controls it.... (apparently )

D and H refer to neither Dear nor Husband, more like Dick and Head...

Anyone with anything to say welcome on this thread secunda I am desperate to understand.

Do you not think though that by throwing him out he is being shown the consequences for those things?

I mean a certain kind of mans total refusal to acknowledge that some behaviours is so unacceptable that their wives/partners can no longer be expected to continue you living with them.

My ex who did nearly everything in my list bar a couple of things told me that I should move out as he didn't have a problem with how things were. He is angry and abusive because "why should you decide whether or not I can live with my kids?". This has been said to me repeatedly. I want to understand the mindset of a man like this.

I can't really explain what motivates individual men to behave like this, beyond perhaps growing up in a family and society which shapes his expectations to be king of his castle- but I do know that women should be given a lot more support to tell them to cock right off.

Often it is members of a woman's own family and her friends who lead her to believe that she should just be doing a better job of 'keeping her man happy', and women who stand up for themselves, especially mothers, are routinely castigated as bitches and nags. Even on here we see argumentative posters criticised as 'playground bitches' etc, when a man would never be pulled up for showing anger or assertive disagreement.

I think that we need to think carefully about the stereotypes we are perpetuating when we talk in these terms. Men tend to have much more power as a group in society, and it makes me sad to see women making keeping us down easier for them.

Perhaps wrong place to ask? I don't think any of us understand the sheer bloody stupidity and selfishness of men like this.

I wonder why the women involved put up with it - but then I know some women who feel:
a) that they have to have A man, ANY man, and that if they don't have this one they may never get another one
b) that this is all they are worth/deserve (after years of being belittled into thinking that)
c) that they can't escape because they wouldn't cope on their own
d) that they should put up with this shite "for their DC"

All of the above facilitate the stupid selfish bastards in their outrageous behaviour - and if they are allowed to get away with it, they have absolutely no reason to change.

Does that help?

I really, really don't know the answer to that question

I wish I did...because then I would not feel so fucking frustrated with women who put up with shit like this, often for years and years

I have been battered several times on MN for daring to say you get the treatment you are prepared to accept...but that means something different to me than deserving it

Hatesponge, a poster I respect, recently wiped the floor with me because I find it so very, very difficult to understand women who tolerate abuse...she took my comments as somehow meaning abused women deserve it (not resurrecting an argument here...just an example of how my strong views get me into trouble sometimes...)

I don't think that anyone deserves to be treated badly...that is my point and I stand by it

However, I have neither studied, nor experienced it...so probably my viewpoint is not that valid to some who have

Anyone else got any clues ?

You are right AF, people will treat you like shit if you let them. It's important to stamp down on such behaviour asap, but it is difficult to tell immediately that it's wrong, as women are conditioned by society to accept unconditional behaviour

Secunda...some people will treat you like shit if you let them

Not everyone

But those with a prediliction for demeaning others have a very clever radar for sniffing out young, naive, needy and/or damaged individuals to practice it on

There is a really interesting thread on here today about someone experiencing the beginnings of this kind of abuse, the OP seems remarkably astute as she has recognised it early on and posted here about it. I didn't recognise it and was abused for 8 years, it creeps up on you, that is not a cliche it is true.

I do struggle greatly with my ex not being able to grasp why I had to end the marriage and why I should not just have put up with everything he dished out. Unfortuately most people I know seem to agree with him. Thats is what I am trying to understand secunda this social conditioning thing.

I wanted to ex h to be happy, I really did, it was very important to me that he was, I felt and still feel that it was because I loved him rather than I was conditioned to do it. However he just took the piss out of me and used it against me and so many men seem to do that, is that social conditioning too?

"women are conditioned by society to accept unconditional behaviour"

I'm not sure that's exactly it, secunda - more that many women are a bit sappy when they are in love and think that the man can/will change, or think of myriad reasons why he is behaving badly (been there, done that, I thought I was immune from such stupidity but clearly not) and excuse him.

There is of course the attitude that "the man is head of the household" - I didn't have that one, having been on my own for several years.

There is also the idea that some women like to be the little woman who is "looked after" and have all the "tough decisions" made for them (bleugh!)

Sometimes it is just that their father treated their mother that way, so it's all they know to expect.

But in the end it does boil down to - if you let them treat you like shit, and they are of the disposition to do so, they will.

or conditioned from birth, in toxic families, leaving for toxic relationships, never knowing anything different, not thinking or believing that things could be different...

its not as black and white as leave him, if one thinks his behaviour is normal, or one somehow caused the behaviour.

big love to all those going through the mixer, and strength to break free.

Women are trained to believe that their happiness relies on other people being happy. Of course, sometimes this is true e.g. it is hard to be happy if your kids are miserable. But it's not your responsibility to make everyone else happy. I think a lot of women put up with crap because they hope it will make people love them. Of course it doesn't

I forgot to add that my a) view of my first post is often held by the mothers and female friends/relatives of the woman in the bad relationship as well - that any man is better than none so you had better buckle down to making this one happy so he doesn't abandon you.

This is more damaging than all the others put together, IMO. Because it validates the stupid selfish bastard behaviour and makes the woman in the situation think there is something wrong with her, rather than her situation or her "man".

It takes years of training by their mums and dads to get to the point where they see themselves as the centre of the universe.

Lundy Bancroft "Why Does He Do That" is recommended reading.

Why no-one else sees what a wife sees is the maddening part of all of this, and the reason is that they deliberately present themselves in a different way to the rest of humanity. They are incapable of anything deeper than a superficial relationship with anyone, so superficiality does just fine for the neighbours and the colleagues, etc. But they get involved with a woman, because they need laundry done and a three squares a day, plus you have sex with women and it's much handier for them to have one right there at home than to have to go out looking for one, unless they seek out porn or prostitutes, not exactly a difficult task though.

Okay, so i will put my hands up and admit that my DH is an arse.

I come from a violent upbringing, my DF was beaten and unloved as a child and my mother was the daughter of a lovely woman to all, except her step children who she was really awful to(they were never allowed to mention their dead mother). My mother spent and spends her entire marriage feeling insecure and does not admit she is the victim of domestic violence, despite having a fractured skull, broken wrist, being bitten, strangled etc. My childhood includes episodes of violence to my mother and myself and sister, my father tried to drown my sister over an episode that my mother created and would wind my father up and then try, not very hard, to defend us. Both myself and property were abused, physically. My parents married at 17/18 and were parents at 18.

So fast forward to me at 16, first relationship with a boy, lasted three years and I finally saw that my family wasn't normal. I was obsessed with this boy, but he was with me. then a string of relationships, a termination, always wanting, needing someone to be in love with me. (I loved my DF but he rejected me at 7, I was too big and I overheard him tell my mother that he couldn't love me). When I met my DH I was 25 and still had this desire to be loved. I was under six stone and quite attractive (I am short). He was a little overweight and very happy, life and soul. I get obsessed and start trying to mould our new relationship into a twenty year marriage in a few weeks.

He rejects me and I become very obsessed, the bad patterns start but I am so desperate to be with him that I can't let go and even though I had two other relationships I kept coming back. I even moved 150miles away twice.

Now we're together, as I got myself pg, and the gradula erosion of everything I hold dear is apparent. But it's not just me now, there are four children to consider.

wow posie - that is bad.

Is your DH a bad man? Is he abusive? Or does he just take advantage of the fact that you won't let him go no matter what?

You got yourself pregnant PP? Blimey that's clever of you. Normally you need someone else to help you.

I'm slightly disturbed by how the thread has shifted from trying to ask why men behave like this, to the usual old question of "why does she put up with it?" If we answered the first question, we wouldn't need to answer the second.

On the whole, it's because men live in a world where they are taught that they are entitled to the services of a woman they live with. They aren't taught that they owe that woman anything, everything is due to them. For men who come from families where this principle is exaggerated to become abuse, they simply fall into familiar childhood patterns. And on the whole, so do women.

re: OP - Because it's nice and comfy for them! He gets to spend all the money, have dominant sex with as many people as he wants, stroll around in freedom with his nice ironed shirts and stuff. What's not to like?

re: Why we stay(ed) - Because abuse:-

a] Starts small and works up, insidiously. Like dry rot.

b] Uses love to get what it wants. Love will make many sacrifices, especially when they're small to begin with.

c] Lies, in its words and its actions. It tells you what you want to hear; it gives you nice presents; it makes your children laugh.

d] Cheats. It tricks you, puts you on the back foot and makes you doubt the evidence of your own senses.

e] Fills you with fear, so you eventually believe you cannot leave.

f] Relies on social pressures. Society likes married couples with families. Society will overlook many warning signs, because society feels safer when its people are married with families.

g] Is assisted by sexism. When a man is abused by a woman, he may feel shamed and few outsiders will believe him. When a woman is abused by a man, there's no shortage of advisers telling her she's got it all wrong and he's just being a man.

While I feel very strongly that men do still enjoy more entitlements, and a stronger sense of entitlement, than women - I don't think that has anything to do with abuse. Abusers are bullies. You find more men bullying women (or, more noticeably) because the strength differential affords power. There are plenty of female bullies around, too.

"But it's not just me now, there are four children to consider"

And those children are learning what to expect from adult relationships, just as you did PosieP.

I know, I am making an exit plan. My eight year old is already rude to me.

Perhaps against my better judgement, I'll add another point:

h] Has many friends. When abuse has successfully conditioned a target, the target remains forever altered. Once she's been bullied into submission, an abuse target carries subtle 'markers' - conveniently for future abusers.

You deserve better posie

Oh, and I agree that we should not spend the whole thread 'blaming' women for staying- but I do believe that we should look at how well we support women in standing up for themselves. I can't do much about twatty men, beyond challenging their attitudes when I come across them- but I do think that we can help each other in communities like this one.