Male Entitlement - Dittany, SGB, AF, BOF and all others please explain to me.....

[shimmerysilverglitter]

in simple terms why a man who has:

Shagged around on his wife throughout their marriage
Used prostitutes during the marriage
Controlled his wife/partner by making her fear his verbal and physical tirades
Kept his wife short of money causing her to claim benefits fraudulently just to live while he kept all his wages to himself
Pawned all their stuff to go out on the piss
Done not a jot of housework
Made his wife feel worthless by ignoring her dreams, ambitions and opinions

This is all stuff I have read on MN recently.

Still thinks he should be living in the family home with his wife and children.

I really want to understand, I really do.

I know some of you have done degrees in Women's Studies and subjects like that and some of you just have the life experience so I would like to hear how your knowledge relates to a man like this.

Good point, SGB, and one I had forgotten.

Dittany, did he say a network of enablers? Sounds like a paedo porn ring, or the mafia! My exes had loads of blokey buddies, who promoted everything we recognise as stag-do culture, but then I had loads of intelligent, thoughtful women friends. A 'network' isolating the 'victim' sounds more like playground/gang bullying than a domestic & social situation.

I'm not digging, I'm asking. I gave my copy of the book to someone who needed it.

Well, fair enough and thanks for the fast reply. I've often thought that X#2 - who divorced me - did so because I wasn't quite obedient enough. As mentioned, I had my own network and it was very unlike his.

I'm just trying to think this through, mainly because of the high proportion of victims-in-denial we're seeing here these days. I'm sure that most abusive men have sexist, brutal-ish male friends. But the idea of them exchanging hints on how to oppress the little lady is absurd. That could only serve to convince our dear, deluded posters that their man isn't like that.

It must mean something more general, like the overall mindset of his friends - and, of course, the messages he chooses to take from our popular culture.
D'you think?

I have a friend who is just now going through a divorce. Her husband has been emotionally abusing her since they got married 10 years ago and he moved on to the physical abuse at Christmas. At that point, she realised she had to end the marriage.

In the six years I have known her, I and another self-declared feminist friend are the only ones who have consistently assured her that her husband is abusing her and that his behaviour is unacceptable. Everyone else has kept quiet about it. I think that's what Dittany means by the network of support. Everyone knew that he was an abuser, but the sacredness of marriage meant that no-one else, except lefty feminists who are far more conscious of these issues than most, pointed it out to her. So she had no support network, in contrast to him.

Yes, I agree "at least some of it". Naturally, a dysfunctioal family will find some things so normal, they barely merit comment (as happened with mine). All of dickhead ex's dickhead mates come from fucked-up families so there was acceptance on both sides.

If what Bancroft meant by 'enablers' was more of a general culture of acceptance by fellow dickheads - it does fit with experience as shared here. Cheers for the responses, I feel it matters somehow

Missed the last 2 posts while typing. Dear god, if it hadn't been for my decent friends, I might still, now, be ranting in despair! Like his wife, probably - not to mention my sisters & sisters-in-law

"I'm sure that most abusive men have sexist, brutal-ish male friends. But the idea of them exchanging hints on how to oppress the little lady is absurd. " Well, I am aware of at least one site for gay closeted married men who exchange tips about fooling their wives, hiding online histories and credit card bills, plausible lies to tell, how to get their blood tested without making it look as if they're worried about anything they've caught on the down low (by blood donation, btw), good hookup places, etc., etc.

Why do they do it? One man I know who does some of these things said that he stays because he wants to keep his reputation and live with his kids. He thinks having an outward show of being respectably married is important and it is vital for his self-esteem (the same weak self-esteem that makes him a bully and a cheat) that his kids look up to him and see him as entertaining, provider Dad over "boring, sensible" Mum.

That's just one reason why one such man stays..

Come on over here and see how easy it is for women to get suckered into supporting a nasty man. (Don't know if this is MN etiquette or not, but it's an interesting thread)

Hmmm. Well, leaving aside persons of extremely confused identity: I guess it's not too unusual for certain groups of women to exchange tips on how to hide the cost of their new shoes/hairdo/moisturiser, or how much they owe the catalogue. Which is collusive financial abuse, potentially. Male equivalents might be to do with how many pints the pint after work was, or how to wangle a night away for the cup final. None of this is ideal, but we all practise deception to some degree.

I think it would be more helpful to draw some real boundaries. Men in anger-management groups do exchange control tips: that much is well-documented. Societal 'support', or non-acknowledgement, of spousal abuse does exist but that kind of change - which is happening, thank god - takes generations not weeks.

You can't say to someone, who's only just trying to get her head around the idea she may be being abused, "he has an abuse support network". Because that doesn't help her.

Got to knock this on the head for tonight.

Interesting link, Math. Yes, this shit happens all the time and it speaks ill of the person doing the pre-emptive strike. It is an attempt to terrorise the other parent - usually the mother, as women tend to be more frightened of the suggestion they might emotionally manipulate their children.

If the accusation is made with grounds, though, it may be true. Did you see that thread here, a few months ago, from someone who'd only just discovered her father hadn't abused them or abandoned them, and had been paying for their school fees, holidays & clothing for decades - all of which the mother had pocketed? The 'alienation of children' rules were introduced because of cases like that.

It's a pity women are so frightened of the possibility their husband might accuse them - but that probably means he's done a good number on the wife already, or she wouldn't be so scared. So, yes, the OP of that thread has been suckered by a man who's behaving very much like an abuser. Shame she can't see her way to support the wie but, as she says, she doesn't know her. She may well be in an abusive relationship herself; she sounds gullible in the way we do when we've been worked on

I have read this thread with interest and have nodded my head in agreement with most of it.

However, MathAnxiety, I have read the thread you linked to, and really don't agree that the OP was being suckered into supporting a nasty man. She was supporting her friend going through a marriage breakdown. Marriages break down for all sorts of reasons, not just abuse by husband. The OP seems to feel her friend is a decent man. Why query it? If her friend was the wife who had confided about her soon to be ex husband would you query her to the same extent? Men need confidants too - they're not that different - and apparently women are empathsisers and communicators more than men (Why that is, is a subject for another thread)
I do agree that an abusive man will probably have a social circle that approves of it, even if only tacitly, full of winks and nods.
We are all the same, gravitating towards those who mirror own attitudes, whether they be benign or not. But there are plenty of people (I would say most but obviously don't have figures) who DON'T condone this.

I just wanted to say somethign about the gendered thing - women are just as capable of the violence towards weaker members - have you read A Boy Called It? And the rest of the family facilitated her abuse of one son, by allowing it to happen - to avoid drawing her abuse onto themselves. The dehumanisation (calling him It was only a small part of it) was immense.

AF - I know it's already been said, but truly, it is insidious. If abusive men started off being complete controlling shitey bastards, then most women would run a mile quickly - but they don't. They start off by being oh so charming and throw their hearts at your feet - then there are subtle beginnings to the abuse, with apologies usually at the start (they soon stop). They push the boundaries to see what the woman will take - and the more they will take, the more they will do. If the woman reacts too strongly, they apologise again, take a step back, but then start again.

It's worse if you know they come from a shit background - you make excuses for their bad behaviour and try to "rescue" them.

I am speaking from experience here - and I can safely say I never expected to get into such a situation, nor that I would take it. But I did. I was lucky though - I obviously wasn't compliant enough so he moved on to more easily manageable targets quite quickly.

Yes, thumbwitch, I agree. Without going into detail, I had a friend when I was a teenager whose mother had been violent and abusive toward the whole family - her husband and children (mainly the children) - the father was a really gentle, small framed man - I never met the mother. But she continued to control and abuse as much as she could even when she had moved out - trying to disrupt the father's new relationships etc.

I also agree that abusers often have friends who back up their worldview - XP had a charmer of a friend who used to share such pearls of wisdom as "Never let your girlfriend out with your mates, they'll only end up going off with one of them" and always making disgusting, awful comments about women and sex and things. The saddest thing I ever heard him say was "Oh I tell my missus she's fat if she goes past a size 14" I was too polite to say what I really thought so I just said something like "Don't you think that those kinds of comments can lead to an eating disorder or something?" and he laughed at me and said "Oh, that's funny, she used to have anorexia!" (Actually, what is sadder is she is still with him, now pregnant, and she is so lovely and doesn't deserve to be stuck with him at all. )

But yes, he definitely validated XP's view that all women are evil and are out to cheat on you etc in the end.

TW, I know this

I just cannot understand it

I may not be very coherent as I have been awake for 24 hours - but something I was thinking about recently was how often (in RL) you hear from women about OTHER women being "psychos", other women "stalking" their current boyfriend - "she won't leave him alone, she's always texting him" or "fucking bitch added him on Facebook" etc etc. There just seems to be this huge amount of hostility from women towards other women who have had anything to with their partner. Whereas that sort of hostility between men is, IME, much rarer. And yet when I look at the RL evidence - the real people who I can see with my own eyes are controlling, toxic bullies - it's almost always men.

Women seem to excuse their partner's behaviour with the partner's exes as being all down to the other women being some sort of bunny boiler, even when these women have been in the same situation of managing to get out of a toxic relationship and then being denigrated by their ex to the new woman. It's so completely divergent from the reality.

AF - believe me, you absolutely could NOT understand it unless you have experienced something like it yourself. It is impossible to imagine that you can become a woman who accepts this kind of behaviour until it starts happening and you suddenly realise that you, yes you, have actually turned into that type of person you couldn't understand.

I think the only thing I can say now is be grateful that you haven't had to experience it - it's all very well being all "oh that would never happen to me" before the event, it just makes it more humiliating afterwards, especially when your friends have been able to see more clearly than you what kind of sap you are being but can't get it through to you.

In no way an expert but for my input.

Men who behave in this sort of way, quite often, genuinely do not believe there is anything wrong with what they are doing.

In his mind it's his wife/partner creating a problem out of nothing, so why should he be punished just because she doesn't like it.

Am finding the discussion on this thread so helpful. Exactly what I hoped for.

I think my ex was greatly validated by his father in his treatment of me. His Dad had always treated his Mum like that and she responded by totally sacrificing herself, personally and financially I suspect just to try to make her husband "like" her. He is a Man who does not like or respect women at all. My ex truly learned at his Father's knee how to feel about women. He wouldn't however want anyone to know the total of sum of how he has behaved towards me and his dc- "washing our dirty laundry in public" but doesn't do anything to change it. It is just how it is. This is why part of me still believes it must be something I did, I must be so fundamentally unlikeable that he can find nothing in me to respect, to treat me like that and then still expect to stay.

ItsGraceagain"usually the mother, as women tend to be more frightened of the suggestion they might emotionally manipulate their children."

This is the sort of thing I needed to know to help me deal with ex and so why I posted this thread. Over the last few horrible years, ex has constantly told me I am a weird, strange, evil woman who would not be able to help turning my kids against him for own ends. I cannot bear being accused of this and have gone above and beyond to "prove" to him that I am not like that at all. I have probably protected my kids from his shit behaviour probably much more than I should have done, for example he pawned all our stuff and I replaced it before they ever knew so they wouldn't know he had done that. I sometimes wonder if I am protecting him to my own detriment as obviously I have blown up from time to time about his behaviour and they will remember this but without being able to remember anything that he actually DID, but only because I protected them from it.

Fwiw my Mum was also controlling and abusive towards me so I know probably more than most that women are capable of it too but when confronted with it by me as an adult she seemed sorry and has really tried to show change. She is aware of how horribly she behaved because I told her so. Ex on the other hand has no clue and if he does then it doesn't matter to him, after all it is only his wife that he did too, ME! and this is what I Just Don't GET! It seems a worse abuse somehow because of this total acceptance that this is just how you treat women/your wife and if they don't put up with it then they are selfish, odd, arrogant, keeping men from their children etc. I think if I could just really understand Why he thinks like that I could move on.

TW, no, I have never experienced this sort of treatment to the degree that some have on here

I had a lucky escape (with hindsight) when I was much younger, though. My life could have been very different.

I didn't think about it for years (apart from the horrible, occasional cringe about what a sap I was...)

But having learned so much from MN, and looking back, I see he was a classic twat in every sense of the word. I wish somebody had made me listen back then. I probably wouldn't have taken any notice though, not until I was ready

Shimmery - you have written your own answer you know. He thinks it's ok because that is what he was taught by his parents. He has no other valid (in his eyes) experience to show him that there is any other way to behave or treat women - he has been, if you like, indoctrinated in this behaviour from a very young age and it forms one of his core beliefs and foundations of his behaviour.

How do you expect him to see that it is wrong when he has his parental example in front of him? He won't - he accepts his family as the "norm" and therefore you are the oddity.

AF - glad you got out before it got too much - I too am glad I was reprieved before I got sucked too far in but still regret the 18m I was involved with the prick. Imagine though if we had stayed with them - the daily erosion of selfworth, the daily tiptoeing around, trying not to set them off, being grateful for the good days and thinking "there, see - he's not that bad after all, there is a reason I love him still" - it's like very slow quicksand, imo. Up to a point you can get out quite easily - but once you're sucked far enough in, it's very very difficult to get out without help.

I agree. But he does tell me that he would hate for our dd to be treated the way that the treated me, which is good I suppose but in other ways makes me feel worse almost, was I really so worthless, I am someone's dd as well. So he does recognise it is wrong but I feel he thinks I am so low I should be grateful for any interaction with him and not be creating a fuss and demanding decent treatment all the time. This is what I struggle with. In my head I know that I am not this unworthy, unloveable, awful person but in my heart I think I must be or how could he behave like this towards me.

I wish I could just accept that this is how it was and move on. Someone said earlier on or it may have been another thread that abused people have markers on them that potential abusers flag up and I think this must be true, I really do, I know I have them now. I have seen one person since split with ex h and if anything he was worse. Luckily due to MN I was able to recognise early on and dump him quickly.

Hey Ho I suppose I will never really understand and should stop navel gazing and just get on with it.