Male Entitlement - Dittany, SGB, AF, BOF and all others please explain to me.....

[shimmerysilverglitter]

in simple terms why a man who has:

Shagged around on his wife throughout their marriage
Used prostitutes during the marriage
Controlled his wife/partner by making her fear his verbal and physical tirades
Kept his wife short of money causing her to claim benefits fraudulently just to live while he kept all his wages to himself
Pawned all their stuff to go out on the piss
Done not a jot of housework
Made his wife feel worthless by ignoring her dreams, ambitions and opinions

This is all stuff I have read on MN recently.

Still thinks he should be living in the family home with his wife and children.

I really want to understand, I really do.

I know some of you have done degrees in Women's Studies and subjects like that and some of you just have the life experience so I would like to hear how your knowledge relates to a man like this.

TheBride, that's hilarious! I think you should start a thread with that title. Perhaps we need a whole section called 'My DH is lovely and reasonable...' and we can list their various wonderful attributes, their romantic gestures, how great they are with the kids, how they love doing the ironing, how they hate gambling and have never been to a strip club. Might not be the most popular topic on mn but would redress the balance a little.

Mind if I go with the winding path this thread takes? No? Good!

1912/1950 - There was a planned campaign to get women back in the kitchen after WW2. When they were sent to work in the factories, women found they liked it. Some fo them even got promoted & earned equal wages (much to male disapproval). The factories gave them stronger support networks, more worldly contact and their own money.

Their reluctance to go back indoors led to much huffing in Parliament about the loss society's "natural order", women getting above themselves, family values and so forth. The drive to make them feel insecure about independence was deliberate. Perhaps coincidentally (I don't know if there were concrete links - but I bet there were), ad agencies thought up the brilliant idea of making women insecure about their whiter whites & body odours at the same time; within 15 years, the job was done.

In 1912, WW1 hadn't even happened. The social effect of that war was to eliminate the extremely rigid class barriers that existed before the 'lower classes' got killed in the trenches. It wasn't necessary for women to do the menial work and fillthe important social role of underclass, because people of both sexes were born into it.

Your 1912 housewife, josie, would have had servants. I know this because she could read.

Women commonly abuse their spouses! As someone said, they tend to go for the emotional/financial/verbal/sexual variants because our gender seems better suited for it.

Ever been to a couples party where the wives are always making snidey digs at their husbands and about them? Verbal & emotional abuse. Women giggling about how much of hubby's money they spent on that handbag, how they "made" him buy her that car, or sharing tips on skimming the housekeeping? Financial abuse. Withholding sex to get a favour? Told him he's no good in bed? Sexual abuse.

Ever heard a mother telling her children they're "not tired" or "that didn't hurt?", calling them stupid; shouting at them to "shut up whining"? Emotional & verbal abuse. There are loads of mothers who put their DCs on premature diets, berate them for lacking some talent or other and tell them they're not good enough. That stuff hurts. Women who bully teenage girls into getting an unflattering haircut, say their clothes are tarty and over-interrogate them about boy friends are sexually abusive. Plenty of mothers abuse teenagers financially, too.

Ever heard a mother telling her children they're "not tired" or "that didn't hurt?"

Hang on, if my 2yr old DD squeals and pulls her hand away from the nail-clippers when I haven't actually started cutting her nails and I tell her briskly "that didn't hurt you!", then I'm abusing her? And if I tell her firmly to speak properly and don't whine, that's abuse? Or am I misunderstanding your point? I usually nod along with everything you write, so I want to check if I'm getting your point.

Interesting thread, and I'm nodding with many of you.

When I logged off last night (for softplayhellparty) the last thread I had looked at, and been on, was in Relationships. (the playfighting one) I couldn't get one or two of the posts on there out of my head and kept thinking about the posters as I sat around the table with the other mums at the party.

Then I looked around me, at the mums.

One is a prison officer, married to a surgeon. Every few months she finds out about his latest affair, moves back to her mother's for a few nights (leaving the kids with him and the sitter) until he promises to dump the affair-ee (usually a nurse) She (the prison officer) always justifies his behaviour by repeating what her mother told her when she married a doctor "A doctor's wife has to put up with this sort of thing. It goes with the territory".

One is a 30 year old Albanian married to a 60 yr old Italian. Her husband works away, and comes back for 48 hrs every 3 weeks, 48 hours during which she is expected to dress like, and behave as, his sex object. (Last weekend she had a kidney infection and he went cosmic on her and still isn't talking to her) but when he's not there, she isn't allowed to wear shorts in public, or use Facebook.

One has a Gucci handbag and a swimming pool. Her husband, several years ago, had an affair with my best friend (I didn't know her at the time, only found out recently that she is his wife)

One is an optician, her husband teaches martial arts and her son told a mutual friend (the Albanian as it happens) that "sometimes Daddy knocks Mummy onto the floor and she is crying so much I have to help her get up".

There were 6 of us round that table. And at least 4 of them, IMO, are constantly undergoing some sort of abuse from their male partners. And they all seem to live such charmed lives until you know all this.

I think what was said a few pages back is the crux of the thing, the men do somehow think it's OK, because society is somehow still telling them it's OK to treat women like this. Every single one of the men above would say they love their wives. We're in Italy so not one of them is ever going to contemplate divorce. The women are going to continue to let it happen. (I agree with Anyfucker on this- these women that I know are allowing it to happen- because I think they would see themselves, not their men, as failures if the marriage failed. Because here every woman is still brought up to aim for a marriage, a house, and children.

I think the UK has moved on from that as the sole expectation. By and large it has.

But as mothers, we have to keep on demanding better for our daughters, and keep telling our daughters to expect better.

Wow, Bucharest. That's really grim.

Bucharest, that is indeed grim. But it ties in with a story I heard a few years ago, and I don't know whether it was supposed to be a "joke", or apocryphal or true - that the best selling non-fiction book in Italy was on 'how to beat your wife so it doesn't show', or something like that. I really hope it wasn't/isn't true - that there is no such book and that it wouldn't be sold openly if there was - but I haven't been able to shake the thought of it.

Nick, I used to tell kids something didn't hurt. But I would never do that now. There are plenty of ways to diffuse a child's (trivial) pain, without telling her she doesn't know her own feelings. Same with "whining", which is a pejorative term for crying, complaining or whatever she's doing. If you wouldn't say "stop crying", you shouldn't really say stop whining. It would be better to answer the problem, distract her, or simply affirm her discomfort. Sorry.

Bucharest, it's not much different here. Brits are far more secretive/shamed about such things, so talk about them less - which is probably worse! When I was travelling, my friends for some reason started telling me about their personal lives in their letters. It was quite a shock.

Sad, isn't it?

Interesting, Grace, I'll have a think about it. I generally do affirm/distract and so forth, but I really, really don't think of the examples I gave as abuse. I would let a friend know if I thought she was being a drama queen, and in the same way I will let my dd know.

That's interesting, Grace, about the changes between 1912/1950.

I disagree about "Stop whining" though. I wouldn't use whining a synonym for crying tghough, it's more for that attention seeking fake cry. I'd give the attention alright but I would say Stop Whining as I don't think they should learn to "fake" their feelings for effect.

See what you mean about whining - you mean the tone of voice? I wasn't thinking of that; I chose a poor example. Tbh, I doubt if anybody's a hundred per cent non-abusive! When somebody else points out a bad habit of mine, I do reconsider ("it doesn't hurt" really pulled me up). Thank you for not flaming me.

No flaming necessary. It's quite good to be challenged to rethink some of my habits.

Just musing on this, but I don't think you'd do your dcs any favours in the long term by leaping attentively to respond to every whine.

This is in the overall context of a loving relationship, of course.

nicknametaken I agree - I know when DD is just whining for whining's sake and when she's really hurt herself. While I don't want to encourage the idea that every little scratch merits tons of attention, I hope I'd avoid saying 'stop whining'

That makes me wonder if my telling DS "you're ok" when he bangs his knee or something is the same as "it doesn't hurt".

I don't think so, but now I wonder? I do always say it while I'm cuddling him - he's not a whiny type, really only cries when something really hurts... hmmm.

Bloody Hell Bucharest!

I think it is important to remember that there are plenty of nice men out there, men who don't only get a hardon if they're making someone else feel like shit, men who don't think the world revolves around them - and I think part of bringing up our DSs (those of us who have DSs) should involve letting them spend time with such men.
Most people are basically OK. They are reasonably co-operative, not cruel for no reason, deal fairly with others and expect to be dealt with fairly.
There are some who have learned that using force is the best way to get what they want, or who have been taught at some point that Might is Right - or indeed had their heads filled with male supremacist/white supremacist bullshit at an impressionable age, and there are still a depressingly large number of men who, while they are not actively abusive (ie don't use violence, nor gaslight, nor criticise and belittle) still have a very deep-rooted feeling that they basically matter more than women, that whatever a woman thinks and does and wants is a bit trivial and, well, female, really.
Then there is that mercifully small category of human beings who are mutants, who have no empathy, who get off on controlling, hurting and destroying others. And this isn't gender-based, though the methods may vary a bit (enough threads on here about toxic women to show that women can be horrible and dangerous to live with).

I totally agree with SolidGoldBrass

Isnt any life lead by a leader and a follower? Power is the altimate goal.

I truely believe this its everywhere in all species. I also agree with Itsgraceagain there are plenty of women abusers but you dont here about them as a man cant been seen to be so weak. Ive heard stories on the radio and its very sad how absoltely evil these women can be.

I would agree that it stems from the family background and probably the boy was held on a pedestal (in good familys I mean)and probably the mother was totally in awe of him. Yes, I am talking about someone that i know that treated. his very well educated and lovely wife like the list (prob apart from the physical part). This girl was blinded couldnt see any fault with him, he made her life hell. He had the stagg night in the house the night before the wedding with coke and prossies. Made usual visits to the hore house on saturday nights, made endless lies. And messed with her head. People told her but she didnt want to believe it. Still his nice parents held him on a pedestal. Even his horrible friends sort of looked up to him, yuk....and when you talked to him he creaped and made so much of a fuss like a perfect gentleman.

I think its very clever of people to manipulate the weaker person in the relationship it happens both ways.

Its probably not a modern phenomen its always gone on and always will because the power is there.

So true, SGB. That's the elusive thing that feminists get angry about, but can't quite define: that men somehow matter more, and what they think is important also matters. Look at all the airtime bloody football gets on TV. Some men honestly think that women are too thick to understand the off-side rule, when really women don't know it coz they fail to see the relevance of knowing it. On this same point, I do think men and women see society through men's eyes. Who is the middle-aged woman? Nobody.

Agree with Anyfucker about abuse too. Victims co-operate with the abuse. I should know because I used to be one. Apparently it stems from early childhood and being brainwashed into not realising you have choices. I also read an interesting article by a psychiatrist saying that the scariest word in the English dictionary for people is "change". Change represents the unkown and is far scarier for most than living with abuse.

"change" as scariest word...yes, very true

you have to be very, very brave to change things sometimes, but the survivors of abusive relationships on here, show that it can be done

Just to go back to the discussion about saying to children "it didn't hurt" etc. I don't think it would even occur to me to say that to one of mine, because I obviously don't know what they're feeling. In that nail cutting scenario, I have had one of my boys say "ow", challenged him on the basis that I hadn't done anything yet, and it turned out I was pinching his toe! Sometimes though, you just have to say "I am sorry if this hurts, but I have to do it and it will soon be over", followed by hugs and if necessary mini treats for bravery (even if they weren't all that brave!) Sometimes when they've hurt themselves, especially when they see blood which tends to get small children panicky, you would explain that the injury is not that bad. That is not the same as telling them they can't or shouldn't feel it badly, it's that they don't need to be worried as well as hurt. Whereas Grace and Nicknametaken are reconsidering in the posts above whether they used the ideal wording (who does, all the time?), clearly their instincts were to comfort the child, sympathise but reassure, and no child in their care would have any reason to feel belittled or uncherished. What I don't understand is anyone whose first instinct is not to do that. Someone to whom a child crying is an irritation I suppose - a narcissist or other deeply self-centred person.

Of course I'm not saying ever so natural caring parents can't be irritated by crying sometimes, especially when we're tired, stressed, or not too convinced there's a good reason for it! And yes, I have told mine to stop whining sometimes (DS4 could have whined for England a couple of years ago), but after we've had the inevitable but pointless "oh no I wasn't" "well that's what it sounds like to me" spat, we've got down to discussing the source of his unhappiness in rational but I hope caring terms. If he goes upstairs to sulk I worry, and after a decent interval will offer to come in and cuddle and, if he's ready, talk. It's his unhappiness I want to stop, not the manifestation of his unhappiness in my hearing.

That leads us neatly round to the entitled blokes again, doesn't it? He doesn't care whether his wife is happy or not, he just doesn't want to be bothered hearing about it. So if she will kindly save it for when he's at work, or go and sob in another room if she absolutely has to do it now (dunno why, she can see perfectly well out of the other eye), everything will be nice and smooth. You know the old joke, "If your wife comes out of the kitchen complaining, what have you done wrong? Made her chain too long." Hilarious eh?

Great post, Annie.