How do I stop being invisible?

[AisieSusie]

I was hoping to tap into the mumsnet fount of knowledge & get some useful practical advice on getting people to hear & respond to my needs and feelings without having to make a huge fuss & totally over react to get anyone to notice. I have never been any good at it (I've recently realised why, my mother was & is an emotional tyrant & never legitimised anyones feelings and emotional state but her own, whilst making me & my sister totally subvervient to her wishes & unreasonable needs , but with my dad still totally ignoring her feelings & pretending none of this existed) , and it's made me pretty unhappy over the years, but now i'm really a breaking point & feel like even I am starting to believe I don't exist.

How can I demand the same respect & caring that other people get naturally? How can I say something about my feelings & not have it ignored?

The situation is that gradually & overwhelmngly My dh is making me feel invisible, & I know it's an awful
relationship but I also know that I want to try for just a bit longer & part of that must be in changing how I act and speak. I have sacrificed so much for this man cos I love him & he's had alot of bad in his life & I naturally wanted to help him, but I seem to have subjugated all my needs & feelings & dignity & now I just can't do it anymore.
Today we had a horrible argument when I told him I can't take it anymore, but it ended not clearly & I was too upset to persue it further but I think he's not heard I thing I have said... & everything I am upset about has been left unresolved, which is ironic as the main thing was about how my needs & feelings get ignored...
In the past when I've been going through a horrible time I've asked friends for help by text, phone or face to face, & often got no response or recognition of how desperate I was feeling / how much I needed their help & support, & then after when everything fine again they say they didn't even know how bad things were, & would have helped 'if they'd known'. Also at work I can't get people to really listen to me, I end up being ignored or I'll say something then someone cooler/ more respected will paraphrase it & get credit.
I thought that if you acted kind & considerate & empathetic & supportive that's what you'd get back, but it seems all I get back is doing lots for others & just having to be strong by myself or ignore my own
feelings & just get on with it. I feel like I am a ghost in my own life.
The only way I can get people (esp dh) to listen is to cry & have hysterics and scream & shout, when I just can't take it anymore, but that only works a bit & then he tunes out or makes me feel like a hsyertical bitch.

So sorry for the long post, but really, how do i stop being invisible and invalid and hardly 'present'?

There is clearly something very wrong either with the people you are surrounded by, or with the way that they perceive you. You are going to have to make a judgement call on whether it's them or you. It's hard to say, not knowing how you are behaving or coming across.

Other people are not psychic, or necessarily particularly intuitive. If you have needs (which obviously you do, as we all do), then you do have to spell them out, in a calm way, and consistently with your behaviour. If you are particularly sensitive, you might be assuming that other people 'feel' the same way that you do.

It's almost certain that they don't. Most people are terribly busy with their own lives, and will not pick up on slight signals or mild pleas for help.

It's certain that the only person in control of this situation is you, and not them. If you are pretty sure that you need to make a big change in the way that you approach life, and the way people treat you, then you probably need some help to do this. I would strongly suggest talking to a counsellor or getting some assertiveness training.

Try not to get hysterical when trying to explain your needs. If you really aren't being heard or listened to, then you're probably just in the wrong situation.

If you're anything like me (or the 'old me', anyway) - my guess is you're surrounded by crazy, self-centred people who genuinely do not realise that other people are living, breathing, feeling creatures with lives of their own. Your mother was like this and, as she was your mother, you grew up to believe this was normal.

Potted analysis: if you love someone & want them to love you, you understand that their needs are terribly important, whilst yours are irrelevant. You will anticipate their needs, try to fill them in advance, all in hopes of getting a little acknowledgement. You do not have the language for expressing your desires & feelings, because there was no point learning it. Is your sister like this, too?

The rules about empathy, give & take and so on are for ordinary people. There's insufficient "take" in your give-and-take, because you never learned the healthy form of transaction. You are all give. All of your senses are attuned to the desires of others. This is why you attracted a user for a partner.

Making any sense?

If you read the Stately Homes thread, you'll find some very enlightening pointers to relevant books & websites. You need a therapist. Your GP can refer you - there might be quite a long wait, depending on where you live, but you can start educating yourself in the meantime.

Well done for coming this far

ps: Get yourself on an assertiveness course. You need a live, group-based one (for practice) not an online one or a book. Check with your employers, they might be able to send you for assertiveness and/or NLP training. Alternatively, there will be local ones that you can access from your library or council offices.

The more you learn about your rights and responsibilites - in balanced, real-life form - the more secure you will feel. Assertiveness courses teach you how to take responsibility for your own rights, without aggression and without giving in.

Grace is right: if you were trained to think of yourself as less than human, you will be behaving as though you are less than human, less worthy of attention and support eg if you phone a friend and manage to say 'I am desperate and need your help' you will immediately without even thinking about it add 'but only if you're not too busy, it's not that bad, I'll manage'. And the friend, unless s/he is really super-empathic and/or has some professional psychology training, will probably only hear the second bit and think, oh well AS could probably do with a cup of tea and a hug at some point soon but right now the washing machine's flooded/I have collywobbles/ooh, Dr Who's on, I'll call her back later.
That is, because you are so used to minimizing your own feelings, you maybe don't realize that you are telling other people not to worry about you, and most other people will believe you when you say you are OK because most people are used to themselves and their friends being basicaly OK.

I really feel for you, OP, you sound like me 5 years ago re your DH. I agree with what Grace & SGB said. If you can't get immediate counselling etc, please do order a copy of Toxic Parents by Susan Forward today. It is in no way a replacement for proper, live counselling. However, just reading that book made me feel less lonely and helpless, and it not only made sense of my childhood, but made me understand how my childhood conditioning has led to toxic relationships (work and personal) in adulthood. It's really galvanised me to go and get help. AND DO go to the Stately Homes thread, you'll realise you are not alone.

Everything everyone has said....

I really empathise...I have spentt most of my life like this ,too, and am still trying to move forward..ut with awareness now....

MN is a really great place to sort through what's going on and get validation - so keep posting and reading.

Read all you can.
And try to find ways to give rewards and good things to yourself.

Have a look at the NPD thread too.

You are so not alone.

This is really sad and I can understand how you feel.

I am that type of person too. My circumstances are different to yours but the lack of communication is similar.

When I was having a bad time over the last couple of years, I didn't tell anyone about my worries or feelings regarding my H suspected infidelity.

I don't have close friends or family close by, just work colleagues who I didn't talk to about personal stuff.

I closed down and internalised all my fears, added to which my H distancing himself meant I had no one to off load on.

When I spoke on the phone to my family or friends they would ask how I was and I would always say 'yeh, great, how are you'. that was it the conversations continued about them and their lives.

My siblings say that they always felt something was wrong but because I am of a very upbeat nature anyway I was good at covering up.

This really eats away at you and you should tell people how you are feeling, it will be a huge relief.

Needless to say since my H left, everyone knows exactly how I feel, I can't seem to stop talking about it, I bet they're now fed-up!!

Yup....another one her...abusive family...lunatic mother, (probably with a personality disorder) and a myriad of rotten relationships, and not very successful,in my career, not because if lack of ability, but lack of visibilty/ entitlement.

I have come to the conclusion many times that God, or whatever, forgot to allocate me a life, so I just float around in some bizarre cosmic pinball game being knocked around by everyone elses reality, whilst having none of my own.

Crap innit?

I am in therapy, NHS, via the GP, I have kicked my h into touch and plan to have some life of my own before I'm dead.

Good advice above. The GP would be the place to start.

thank you all so much for your replies, very thoughtful and supportive. I feel for anyone else who feels similiar to me, but its also kind of nice to know I am not the only person floating transparently in their own life.

I wrote another post last night but mumsnet went to back up and i lost it - very annoying!

So, to recap what I wrote hopefully at least more precisely:

I think its a bit of who I am surrounding by, and a bit of me as well... i can change who i am surrounded by but it will only happen again unless i change the way i see myself and interact with other people...

I have only recently realised that growing up my mother created an absolute hell where no one except her had a right to feel anything, and it was a known fact that she had a terrible life due to me, my sister and my father. Its only since being pregnant and having my darling gorgeous ds that i realise that was totally wrong. She had a lifestyle and support i can only dream about and i cannot understand why i didn't see this before. I have tried counseling but I guess I didn't have enough insight over the reality of my life growing up to be able to move forwards, certainly it starts to make sense reading other posts here now, not sure why it didn't before.

But how am i subtly telling people i don't matter? that i have no right to be heard and seen and responded to like other people? what is it i am doing that i can change? If anyone reads down this far on the post, i;d love it if you could offer insight/ suggestions on these two situations:

Firstly, a really simple one that i can never get right: going to the doctors... how do people actually get the right dynamic going to say what's wrong and be taken seriously? i hate it when the gp says 'how are you' when i walk through the door, obviously am not alright as i wouldn't be there, but i have to say ok or fine, as thats the socially appropriate answer to how are you, but then i get all flustered and don't know how to say what i came for... it sounds so stupid, but can anyone tell me what you would say?!

Secondly, how do i tell my dh that leaving the argument unresolved is not ok? i don't want to repeat to him how i feel as that compounds the feeling of not being listened to, but i do need him to respond to yesterday... what can i do?

Susie I always carry in a piece of paper with bullet points on with every thing that I want to mention. Sounds daft but it works for me - because I know it's there I don't need to get it out of my bag.

My mother was delightfully similar to yours, at 33 I am finally starting to turn things around.

One thing to remember is the vibes people like you and me give out, by the tone and pattern of our speech, body language, the way we phrase things, our eye contact (or in my case, complete lack of eye contact) and what we are screaming to everybody with every fibre of our being is 'I'm never good enough, I'm not worth it, please don't lsiten to / notice me' no matter what the content of what we're say is. It's not a concious message but it's there nonetheless.

Obviously the message you give out will be slightly different to mine. It takes a very concious effort to start changing the message, I have used several books, but looking up stuff to do with positive thinking and changing negative self-talk could be helpful for you.

Now repeat after me "I am loved and respected and my feelings and opinions are important"

Now with more feeling

shout it loud

and give yourself a big round of applause

(I am going to teach this stuff one day!)

asiesusie,

yes, when the gp asks how you are, i also say 'fine thanks and you?'. then they say 'what can i help you with?' and i tell them the problem.

i treat it as a social nicety, not expecting people to actually want to KNOW how i am.

i think you have to start saying what you are thinking, and don't worry about how it comes out. at first it may seem awkward and blunt, but persevere. so you tell your dh 'i am not happy to let yesterday's argument go unresolved. this is what i want: blah blah blah'.

so on a practical level try to start implementing small changes to get closer to what you want.

it might also be worth thinking about cutting contact with your mum, or at least really cutting back on contact.

When you go to the GP, take a printed copy of this thread with you perhaps.

Ask for an assessment by your mental health services, and hopefully they will be able to allocate the right kind of therapy for you.

I started with relational therapy last year, which ironically led me to separate from my h. Now I'm on to inner child therapy, which is very powerful and I'm finding it very difficult as the distress of facing up to my childhood and two abusive marriages is collosal. But I'm getting there.

Recognising a problem is a huge step towards healing it.

xx

Since I am so conditioned to be "FINE!" and, like partytime, am a buoyant character anyway, I don't cry at the doctor's which would be far more constructive iyswim. I also write down what I want the GP to know - I've even sent them letters, with a request to file. They tell me it's helpful!

I'm not sure how much you can do about your DH. The brutal fact is, if he loved you as you deserve to be loved, he would hear your concerns and care about them. Rather than become even more frustrated in your relationship for now, I suspect it will be more helpful (to both of you) if you invest your emotional energies in the threads here, your therapist when you get one, and the groups you join. That way you can reduce the atmospheric pressure at home, and still get the 'listening' you need with opportunities to express your concerns safely.

You are loved and respected and your feelings and opinions are important

I struggled to be assertive for a long time and felt that people always took advantage of me. For a long time I had a copy of an Assertiveness Bill of Rights inside the kitchen cupboard. Everytime I opened the cupboard for a tea mug, it was there to see...

Bill of Rights

I have the right to state my own needs and set my own priorities as a person independent of any roles that I may assume in my life.

I have the right to be treated with respect as an intelligent, capable and equal human being.

I have the right to express my feelings.

I have the right to express my own opinions and values.

I have the right to say "yes" or "no" for myself.

I have the right to make mistakes.

I have the right to change my mind.

I have the right to say that I do not understand.

I have the right to ask for what I want.

I have the right to decline responsibility for other people's problems.

I have the right to deal with others without being dependent on them for approval.

It is a bit long, but sometimes we need reminding just what we should expect for ourselves.
Hope it helps

This is really interesting.

I have always considered myself to be a strong person, resourceful, opinionated, confident, very open, fiesty, etc.

I think others see those qualities in me too, but my problem was that I couldn't be that person in front of stbexh, his personality was so much stronger, more powerful.

I have a close friend and, strangely my MIL, who have both said since we split that I was totally in awe of him, under his spell, if you like, subservient.

I had never considered this, but maybe if others saw it then it must be true, and that is why I was unable to express my feelings adequately.

Who knows, if this would have helped my situation but, yes, if I didn't feel so invisible where H was concerned we could still have been together.

I love the bill of rights.

Wow, the right to decline responsibility for others actions is really key for me, that's the reason I am stuck in this situation & feel like I've got no power to change anything. I am taking on responsibility for the whole of my dh's life, & there get the blame for it too, & he is free to carry on however he likes.
In my marriage I have all the power but I take all responsibility & therefore end up with weirdly no power at all, I feel like I have 'no choice' but to hold things together & take anything life throws at me (& by life, I mostly mean dh).
Dh is from a wartorn country, & we married for love but earlier than planned as I wanted to keep him safe & in the country. So fought a huge (& costly) legal battle to keep him in the country, & after 2 years of hell got him a 3 yr visa, which is now up for renewal. In the meantime he's never got a job (I work like hell to support us), & gradually made my life do stressful & miserable, as he hates being dependent on me, visa & money, but does nothing to change it, hates anything that's fun, spends loads of money on nothing, alienates me from friends, blames me for everything, nothing I do is ever right, & everything I wanted in life gas to wait/ isn't important/ I have to give up as he changes his mind, including kids which I feel is my reason for being... Then we get pregnant (accident, was on pill), & I think it's a gift from god, he thinks I did it on purpose to 'trap' him (after 5 yrs of marriage?) & moves out. He came back but now everything on his terms, doesn't acknowledge how badly he's treated me, doesn't say I love you, won't even look at me had really bad SPD & was in crippling agony but had to work til 39 weeks as needed the money....

So currently: huge debts, all in my name, visa needs renewing, will cost £3000 upwards, 10 wk old baby, I am on maternity leave but will have to take out more loans to even have 6 months off, don't know how will pay for childcare when I go back, but have to go back as have so many debts, am fat ugly & covered in stetch marks, & still in loads of pain in back & hips that really limits what I can do
So I think my dh should be bloody grateful as I've moved heaven & earth to please him & given him my heart soul & supported him unconditionally, & I just can't do it anymore. So that's what the argument was about... & nothing got resolved...
So have just talked to him with courage from this thread, & said to leave it like this is unacceptable & I deserve more. Really really big realization that I am NOT responsible for his visa or right to stay here or actually his safety & human rights, as he knows it's reliant on us carrying on being married, yet he somehow feels like that gives him liscense to treat me like crap as he knows I have a moral obligation not to split up with him... Well no more (hummmm sound braver than I feel), I have said he has a week to decide whether to A. Split up, in which case no support from me & no right to stay in this country (oh god), or B. Be a proper husband & father & start making up for his horrible behaviour... And no middle ground or option where it carries on as is
oh dear, what do you think? I don't know what to do...

By the way, sorry about previous long post & new detail in it, read on another thread that mn rules don't approve of giving new info as thread develops (?) but this is a bit of a journey for me & stuff happening as I type... Also v badly spelt as typing on phone & breastfeeding bitey baby at same time...

Sweetheart, I read your post above and realised I was saying out loud: "Amazing! Oh, well done!"

Frankly I feel your option B is a tad too generous! But what the hey, you have finally determined a boundary for yourself and that's BRILLIANT! Well done. Give yourself a nice reward of some sort, then make up your mind to STICK WITH IT! Print out your rights, and keep posting if you need any "wobble support".

ps: sorry to hear about the bites
[ouch emoticon]

You are doing so well in such a difficult situation ,just when you should be enjoying your new baby and being loved,cared for ,looked after and adored by the h for whom you have done so much.

I second everything Grace says above..

Be strong,stick with it,and do nice things when you can - although that is such a challenge when breastfeeding ,(I am bf'ing 5 wk old),really well done for keeping with it along with all this!!!

Oh thank you thank you so much (welling up pathetically grateful icon).
I am already wobbling, but I can't carry on like this, I just hope he pulls himself together & treats me like am a human again... God knows how I would look after my baby if he leaves, but trying not to think about it.
Not sure how I should behave this week whilst I wait, am v confused about it all, I think he ll pretend it's not happening & carry on as usual & try & call my bluff by pretending there is no deadline or he can't remember or something. I don't want to bang on about it as I guess that's taking responsibility for his actions again & also makes me sound like a horrible nag. Also don't want to waste a week of my maternity leave being miserable & tense... As much as I can help anyway.
The more I think about it the more I think can predict what he'll do, & it's already making me feel sick. . If I don't mention it we ll have a quite nice week, he ll be a bit nicer on a day to day level & take a cursory interest in me, & get me thinking everything might be ok, & then on Saturday he won't mention it until I break & ask him, & he ll look upset & pissed off & try & not answer, as I guess he would assume nothing will come of it. Then I'll feel manipulated into asking him to leave & my heart will break & I'll feel like not only is my world collapsing but I did it to myself, then I will hope & pray he changes his mind & comes back, & will accept anything off him if he comes back again.... Oh god
started writing that to remind me to be strong in face of him trying to keep everything the same... But it's just made me feel defeated, oh lord, things really see awful aren't they

pulls self together...

Pinemartina- oh 5 wks, ahhhhh, hope you not too exhausted & hope you very much loved up.

You start by surrounding yourself only with people who care about you , and getting rid of the ones that dont. Your freinds are not freinds or they would be supportive towards you.Why do you need to pay for childcare if your dh is not currently working ? Frankly it sounds like you are being emotionally and financially abused, no wonder you feel the way you do.

I recommend getting educated about what these people are doing to you first and foremost. Its not a lack of understanding or thoughtlessness that causes issues with your h to go unresolved, he doesnt listen or do anything because he doesnt want to. That would involve effort on his part and it sounds to me like hes having an easy ride of it , why would he want to change it ? What motivation is there for him to change , what extra work would he make for himself by agreeing to what you want ?

Hes not tuning you out, hes stonewalling you, a favourite tactic.

Why have you given him a week to decide if he wants to be a better husband or split up ? Why does he get to decide, and why does he need a week ?

Theres some books you could start off reading, ones called living with the dominater by pat craven, and the other is why does he do that by lundy bancroft, both are just a few quid on amazon. Theres also some fantastic websites that will explain to you exactly whats going on, and sadly you will think the writer knows your h personally.

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Aisie, if your not going to be able to stand kicking him out then dont raise it again for now, theres no point making rash threats that you wont follow through with.

Perhaps just start by ordering those books or looking at some websites. Start with seeking out information and educating yourself about the dynamics that are at work here.

You seem to be surrounded by people with similar mindsets which will distort your veiw. You need some support. Have you thought about ringing womens aid ? They deal with emotional abuse, and they wont pressure you into leaving if thats not what you want at the moment. You really shouldnt be feeling like this.