How do I stop being invisible?

[AisieSusie]

I was hoping to tap into the mumsnet fount of knowledge & get some useful practical advice on getting people to hear & respond to my needs and feelings without having to make a huge fuss & totally over react to get anyone to notice. I have never been any good at it (I've recently realised why, my mother was & is an emotional tyrant & never legitimised anyones feelings and emotional state but her own, whilst making me & my sister totally subvervient to her wishes & unreasonable needs , but with my dad still totally ignoring her feelings & pretending none of this existed) , and it's made me pretty unhappy over the years, but now i'm really a breaking point & feel like even I am starting to believe I don't exist.

How can I demand the same respect & caring that other people get naturally? How can I say something about my feelings & not have it ignored?

The situation is that gradually & overwhelmngly My dh is making me feel invisible, & I know it's an awful
relationship but I also know that I want to try for just a bit longer & part of that must be in changing how I act and speak. I have sacrificed so much for this man cos I love him & he's had alot of bad in his life & I naturally wanted to help him, but I seem to have subjugated all my needs & feelings & dignity & now I just can't do it anymore.
Today we had a horrible argument when I told him I can't take it anymore, but it ended not clearly & I was too upset to persue it further but I think he's not heard I thing I have said... & everything I am upset about has been left unresolved, which is ironic as the main thing was about how my needs & feelings get ignored...
In the past when I've been going through a horrible time I've asked friends for help by text, phone or face to face, & often got no response or recognition of how desperate I was feeling / how much I needed their help & support, & then after when everything fine again they say they didn't even know how bad things were, & would have helped 'if they'd known'. Also at work I can't get people to really listen to me, I end up being ignored or I'll say something then someone cooler/ more respected will paraphrase it & get credit.
I thought that if you acted kind & considerate & empathetic & supportive that's what you'd get back, but it seems all I get back is doing lots for others & just having to be strong by myself or ignore my own
feelings & just get on with it. I feel like I am a ghost in my own life.
The only way I can get people (esp dh) to listen is to cry & have hysterics and scream & shout, when I just can't take it anymore, but that only works a bit & then he tunes out or makes me feel like a hsyertical bitch.

So sorry for the long post, but really, how do i stop being invisible and invalid and hardly 'present'?

AisieSusie

Didnt mean to upset you and of course bigger problems take longer to solve and you should be able to expect your friends to support you through them

It's just that if there is never ANY progress on the problems despite advice and support, your friends can start feeling as though they're stuck in Groundhog Day. The friend may also end up feeling hurt that their advice is being disregarded, and that whilst they're spending time helping you, you;re not doing anything to help yourself.

They may also worry that they're not so much supporting you, as enabling you to continue on what they see as a potentially destructive path. i.e. by being a sounding board they make it easier for you to stay in your situation.

As you may have guessed, I've been on the other side of the fence and I'm just trying to explain why your friends may withdraw if you try to talk about your marriage.

Your thread is ringing so many bells with me now, Aisie, this may turn out to be a bit a ramble ...

Well done on the lightbulb flash about your job! I, too, have always been fantastic at making things happen for other people. In fact, I was often told I should be an events organiser. I worked in sales & advertising. My real unique strength was coming up with ideas and solutions, however I was very comfortable with letting others believe the idea was theirs, then guiding the project to successful completion. I launched a lot of glittering careers: some of them, the very career I wanted

I can't give you a happy ending to that particular story, as I landed up in a position that exploited me to the point of complete mental & physical collapse. Bastards. I'll try to pass on a few of the things I'd begun to learn, though:-

Say "I want", "I can't accept", "I need". If you're a bit like me, you'll be using the passive mood; asking instead of telling; saying "we" or "they" when it's really your responsibility/decision; referring decisions to your boss whilst actually making the decision yourself. Get in the habit of taking a tiny pause before you reply. Replace that third person with YOURSELF. It changes the way people react to you.

When telling people what you want, need or hope for - start at the bottom. This is a lesson from presentation training, but it was a hell of a long time before I thought of applying it to my own needs! Instead of assuming your listener's already on the same page as you, begin with a couple of sentences to state where you're coming from.

Request confirmation that you've been properly heard. "Does that make sense to you?" "Are you clear about such-and-such?" "What steps are you taking towards XYZ?"

Request clarification about anything that sems ambiguous. The simple question "What do you mean when you say ZYX?" can resolve a world of pain.

Bear in mind that most sane people do all the above without thinking! It can prove interesting to start noticing who speaks in waves of inference (code), compared to those who accurately say what they mean

Have a quick look at a page on Transactional Analysis. Aim to stay in Adult mode, regardless of others' game roles. TA doesn't say you have to be Adult all the time, incidentally, but you do need to aim for it while you're getting the hang of things.

I bet you anything your H swerves from Child to Parent all the time, with never a hint of Adult!

Don't worry too much about your friends. One of the benefits to working on your self-love is that the wheat & chaff start separating themselves out, sometimes with surprising results

OMG - lightbulb for me,too!!!!!

Won't highjack thread, as I find it so easy to ramble on....

My role in my last 3 jobs( in MH) have involved facilitating teams through restructuring and organisational change ....

Identified with all you said ,Grace...and for me,the outcome has been that a bullying campaign against me has somehow segued into a case against me ,by the same people, accusing me of being the bully....

The "business" this has all happened within is a therapeutic service,with supervision and self awareness a prerequisite....
But I think so many of us in MH are varying degrees away from "normal/sane"...not too many "Adults " around!....

I know lots of people have moved on from me,confused and exhausted at the repeating patterns and drama.......

Thinking about something in my own life just now: it's a bit relevant so I decided to use your thread share it. Last time I saw my sister, she told a little story about one of her co-workers: She'd been on a course, where the facilitator asked the group for impressions of childhood. While the others came up with happiness, freedom & contentment, sis's friend said all she felt as a child was frightened.

I replied in general terms. I've only just realised sis might have been inviting me to discuss her own feelings in childhood. But I didn't hear that, because it wasn't what she said!

Will try to work around it with sis ... but, if I'm right, it's a bloody good example of how 'damaged' individuals can manage not to get heard, iyswim.

Your last sentence is worrying, PM. Care to elaborate?

Hi, I have been following this thread, and I have to say suzie, that I am so impressed with how articulate you are and your level of self awareness you have. I feel a fool, as unlike you becoming aware of the feeling of being a shaddow in life, of realsing your family was dysfunctional, and of not being heard, I was unable to pin point the problem in my life, it took my ex to leave, after I had kept things in for years, and for me to fall apart and then ask for help and again not have my needs met, by people before, or afterwards, except for their own ends, and the police advising me I had been abused my whole marriage, and years of working through it all that I realised what it was all about!

The advice you have had on here is fab, you could not ask for me, I suggest you got back an read it all again actually!

So many of those who have posted, are survivors and have recovered or are recovering from the same thing, and I can so identify with so many things you say, such as the gp!

I have to say, now that my confidence is a bet better, I had to deal with a headmaster, before I would have folded having the conversation I had, not trusted my innervoice and gone with his way of thinking, now that I am stronger, I had no doubt that my innervoice was right, and I faught my corner with strength, rather than folding as I would have before... I was right to do what I wanted to do in the end and that has now given me more confidence to stand up to others who are in authroity who don't really know best after all!

Keep posting, and I really do think you are doing so well x

Grace - I guess I was identifying with what bride said earlier....I can think of a number of friends over the years who have drifted off or just stopped getting in touch.....
actually , as I write,I realise I have >>assumed

pm, I did a bit of digging around regarding an old friend today, I did this as a mutual so called friend on fb, shared a silly post one of those daft chain questionairres that means nothing that I am not in the habbit of posting, I had on my wall on her own profile, I removed it from both our walls and stopped her viewing my wall in future!

Anyways getting to the point in hand, as I realised her motives in being fb friends were not good, had long suspected so, I looked at mutual old friends wall, which for some reason she has public, and low and behold, she is having lots of problems in her life, drinking too much etc, what was most interesting is she was posting a lot on someone else's wall, I don't know, so I took a look and their wall was public as well, seems this person has a lot of health problems and depression and the old friend is helping her, it is worring as I can see that this new person is getting odd messages on fb from person's unknown, and I do think it is old friend, as I got accused of sending them to someone else mutual we knew, and that was partly why I left that group, I saw also on another person who was in that group that they were getting odd fb messages and I think it is all the old friend doing it now, scaring people and then making out she is lovely to bring them closer to her, she did some very nasty things to many people I knew, goodness knows what she did to me, but there was an incident that made no sense to me that I thought and think she was behind, she is not good to be around, I also see from her profile she is helping in homestart and in old folks as a volunteer, it is really scary these predators, wolves in sheeps clothing we meet in life.... I am just glad I am out of it all!

pm, what was relevant to your post is that the old friends we had may not have been good for us after all, and that we are sometimes better off without them x

OP - when you go the doctors, and s/he says, "how are you", say, "not too good actually, I'm here because....(then explain your symptoms).

About your hubby. Say to him "things didn't get resolved the other day did they? Well, at least from my point of view they didn't..so we still need to talk. Shall we have a chat now, or after tea/football/whatever? Then set aside a time, and calmly put forward your point of view. Try and view it as a discussion, not as a potential row.

I agree that your upbringing has had a terrible effect on the way you are now. Try saying "no" more! No explanation, no justifying, just "no". e.g. "If you're going to the photocopier, could you do these for me?" "No, sorry, but I can't do that". It will seem really hard, but you'll find out that the people actually don't mind you saying no sometimes, in fact, they might respect you for it.

hello again, sorry for the pause which i hope hasnt derailed the thread as is sooooo interesting! paused partly as my dh has been around more and feels quite weird to type these things when he is in the house. secondly, and more positively, gave me alot to think about, it feels like i've really moved forwards through the thoughts you lovely people have been sharing, although now not sure what to do with it!

need to go through and note down every single thought i wanted to follow (so many branches!), but just off the top of my head, here are some thoughts to follow...

bride - dont worry i know you werent meaning to upset me, it obviously was a bit of a trigger, but useful, as in rl, i would have just been upset/ ran away, because i was really desperate to carry on posting, i actually sat down & thought my way through why i was so upset.

i think its one of my deep rooted fears i am boring & whiny, & 'go on about myself', family have made this part of my internal dialogue, partly cos only one person was allowed to have reactions & emotions (& that obviously wasnt me!), also it was used to make sure i didnt tell anyone else the weirdness of my family. So mostly, it was becuase thats what stops me telling people any/ most of this stuff, about past & current problems - and therefore linked to feeling v disconnected from my own life/ portrayal of reality.

so am drawn to people who replay that same dynamic, so totally ringing bells with you dignified with the whinging for hours friends who are mysteriously absent when i want some reciprocation. might be because of who they are, or becuase am so bad at communicating this stuff, but some definately its about me attracting the wrong people.

I think of them as foul weather friends, except its only ever their foul weather... what really annoys me is they don't even want to go out and have fun with me when they are in a good mood, as i am just there to whinge on...

more complex than that though, it touched a nerve as i think i HAVE been that person on a few occasions, when i have got close to someone and told them a bit about me, and then they want to find solutions to fix it, and get bored/ pissed off/ disillusioned and then run away. i don't think they were as kind/ thoughtful enough to think in the way you did in your explanation, its more about 'ah well, she's obviously not 'my type' of person if she won't do X and solve it, so we aren't that compatible as friends after all', and then they mouche off to find more 'whole' and like minded friends.

so true & not true all at the same time! difficult to know how to move forwards on that one... as my current response has been to not get close to people/ share anything, or get close but create a bit of a glossing over of many aspects of life, so not really close as i am not being truthful... i'd love just to be myself with people, but i really don't know how anymore, i guess its difficult when you lose that sense of who you are, let alone whether that person is worth being with

Itsgraceagain & pinemartina - i got really excited to realise that you too had the job insight! wow! there's something rather amazing and interesting about this... am having a bit of an 'i love mumsnet' moment, as would never have noticed this blindingly clear insight, had i not been posting... and thats after 10 years of crossexamining anything i do and trying to work out why i am so miserable and screwing up my life. It seems very clear now about my job, amazing i never noticed it, was under my nose all the time.

Its really interesting that we have all been drawn to those kind of jobs... but what do we/ I do with this then? I was thinking its the same screwed up attitude to the world which makes me a great facilitator, and stops me actually being recognised as such by my peers/ bosses. and surely there is something very unhealthy about replaying a scenario time after time like i do through every workshop i run... but that was something i am/was proud of, as i think/ thought it takes a person with quite a unique skill set to run these things... but now, its maybe not something to be so proud of after all... lordy...

An event has been rattling around my head for days now, and again, not sure what to do with this thought! I went on a coaching course a while back and we had to use real examples in a coaching role play, so i used the example of 'i love my job but it takes over my life, and love facilitating, but tend to get so drained by it, how can i get a work-life balance'. The course leader looked a bit confused and sad 'but things that you love normally give you energy, not drain you'. At the time, I thought that was not a helpful comment, and that the leader obviously hadn't grasped the point... but now i think maybe she had grasped it rather better than i had.

This has real relevance for me as i have to return to my job in september, and don't know how i'll cope with that and baby, as the job is so all consuming and knackering, and i constantly feel like i have to prove myself over and over again and feel like i don't get credit for half of what i do, but get blamed for an awful lot... for example hurt my ankle really badly last year, but felt so guilty for 'letting people down' managed to let myslef get rail roaded and coerced into travelling abroad to facilitate with a broken ankle not even in a cast! and even though i asked for an apology, didn't even get a response - classic invisibility... and i let them do it, makes me so angry with myself...

an aside: pinemartina feel for your horrid work situation, sounds awful, whats happening with that if i can ask? do you have a thread on it or is it too difficult to speak about? ps and also please feel free to hijack this thread, as its all related anyway in my head!

so was thinking how to get a better dynamic going at work, and how to feel more included, and not have this underlying sense of uncertainty and paranoia going all the time. I guess one thing is that my perspective will have changed, and work cannot take over my life cos i have my ds as my priority... but cant imagine its going to be easy to change...

i thought it was just my company that wasn't good for me, and i could try and move jobs, but it maybe is deeper than that, and in that case, i wonder what's the best way forwards...

itsgraceagain will read the link on transactional analysis now, but tell me more if you can about those who speak in waves of inferences vs say what they mean... do u mean that inferences are not useful?

its a minefield, how do you 'test the waters' in the conversation before diving in then? or is this testing of waters where i go wrong? i guess like your sister, maybe people missing the point of what you are saying...

interesting that i dont really know how to ask for clarification of ambiguity or when i dont understand something (which i guess is what allows dh to keep doing what he does)... i feel like ive failed somehow if i dont get something, & leave it too late to ask, & then if/ when i do ask, usually when i havent been able to work it out & people start to notice, i get funny looks, like i've done it wrong somehow...

and finally mummiehunnie, definately taking your advice about rereading the thread, i am a bit blown away by the thoughtfulness of all responses!

oops, it looks like i am spamming my own thread now with so many posts all off me!

hopefully this thread hasnt sunk into the ether as i left it so long, am really intrigued to see what other great thoughts & advice people have (or am i just being greedy now)..

Your thoughts & posts are really interesting, AS. Thanks! Am going to keep this shortish, as I'm trying to spend a little more time outside my own head this week.

With the story about my sister: She related the colleague's experience in some vague context - I suppose it stuck in my head because it seemed a little incongruous. What she didn't do, however, was extend it to ourselves in any way. Had she added something like "I'm not sure I would have had the nerve to be as honest as that", then I would have known she was feeling ready to discuss The Issue.

Conversations need a light touch in general - you evidently have a successful-enough life, so you know about this. With 98% of the people in your life, you'll probably never know any more about each other than a few generalities. Proceeding to intimacy takes - as you so accurately put it - a dance. A small invitation; a small reciprocation. If you really feel you're missing some of the steps to this dance, then read up on it. That ancient classic, "How To Win Friends And Influence People", is pretty good and easy to follow (once you skip over the 1950s sexism!)

Wrt to misunderstandings - just stop that now! You, like every other democratic citizen in the world, have the right to know. So just ask. Promise you will?

So that was a short post