How we respond to threads about abuse + troll paranoia

[dizietsma]

I have noticed that often in threads where a poster is discussing abuse they are experiencing there is a lot of troll paranoia.

I think that this often happens because people who are lucky enough to never have experienced any abuse find it hard to believe how bad things can get.

I also think it happens because people get frustrated with the way abuse victims find it hard to take advice on how to improve their situations.

Frustration and disbelief are natural reactions, but they are something that really needs to stop on abuse threads.

Victims of abuse are often extremely isolated. If they reach out and are treated with suspicion and disbelief it could condemn them to further isolation and prolong abuse, this is unacceptable.

Furthermore, whether or not a poster disclosing abuse is genuine is irrelevant. I believe that all posters disclosing abuse should be treated as genuine so that other victims reading those threads will see that they can receive support, advice and encouragement should they brave reaching out.

For these reasons I believe that there should be a policy here that those people who have suspicions should hide the thread, and hold their tongues.

Can we agree on this?

I'm very intrigued that posters on this thread are happy to say up front that they refuse to adhere to the site policy. I wonder if MNHQ would consider that a reason to ban/delete?

"I'm very intrigued that posters on this thread are happy to say up front that they refuse to adhere to the site policy. I wonder if MNHQ would consider
that a reason to ban/delete?"

I'm very intrigued that that posters on this thread are so against trolls being outed at all, to the extent there are suggestions anyone making a troll accusation should be banned/have their posts deleted. Just why is it that you are so in favour of people being allowed to deceive others in this way unchecked?

I agree that people should take responsibility for keeping themselves safe on the internet, but that doesn't mean that trolls have the right to lie/deceive whoever they want because it's the responsibility of the one being deceived to take better care of themselves.

Would you tell the victims of abuse on here that they should have taken better care of themselves in order to not be abused in the first place? No thought not. So why is this any different?

Whether people agree with it or not, people do become involved in the lives of others they meet on the internet. Sometimes they just go to a meet-up and have a coffee, and then develop a genuine friendship from there. But sometimes they empathize with someone's situation if they've been through something similar and reach out to that person to try to help them. People don't deserve to be lied to just because someone feels that trolls shouldn't be exposed.

And let's be honest here - we're not just talking about supposed victims who troll online. What about judge flounce? She gave legal advice to mumsnetters - she pretended to help people. And the child modelling troll - she met up with mumsnetters, gave them advice about getting modelling jobs for their children - and all the while it was suspected she was selling pictures of their children to paedophile rings. (suspected - never proved but none the less...)

Just as someone can pretend to have a sob story to gain sympathy and can draw people in that way, so it it is also easy enough for someone to pretend to be genuinely helpful and want to help out, and for vulnerable people, whose judgement might be impaired because of what they are going through to be deceived/abused by those types of trolls.

a bit OTT there wannabe.

you know full well OP isn't saying trolls should be given free reign.

no-one should give anyone photos of their child to a stranger.

no-one should agree to meet someone from an internet forum without taking basic safety measures.

no-one should take legal advice from an unknown person on the internet.

surely that comes down to common sense.

we're talking about threads where the OP has a problem/question and is looking for advice. sometimes these will be trolls but often they will be geniune people who may have gotten their story mixed up- often to protect identity.

Good OP. I am deeply concerned about this issue.

But it's too simple to split people into genuine/trolls.

Some people fall into each of these categories but I know of an someone in RL with a psych diagnosis who is making all sorts of allegations on MN that I believe to be untrue. Other posters, who have never met the person in RL, are encouraging them to take all kinds of actions. This is causing extraordinary harm to people beyond MN.

I'm all for believing people and wouldn't personally accuse anyone of being a troll, whether I believed their story online or not, but I know only too well some of the RL damage that is caused when people are sure that everyone who tells a story they can relate to must be true.

We have to care for people online and off and be careful what we recommend or encourage MN posters to do.

Have you reported this poster to mnhq, whoknew?

I would always prefer to err on the side of believing someone. Even if the poster turns out not to be genuine, who can tell who may be lurking and gauging reactions without throwing their hat in the ring? I would not like to put off a woman who might really need some help and might be considering taking the huge step of opening up to strangers online by my treatment of someone else.

If I'm on MN anyway, it's not like I'm so busy doing something else that I'd be angry if it turned out not to be what it seemed at first.

Don't know what to say about the principle of the thing, except that I agree it's better to risk being fooled by someone than to scare someone who is vulnerable back into her cave. Really, anyone who is confident enough to call troll is doing far better emotionally and in terms of resilience than someone who is perhaps unused to expressing herself, revealing personal information, or even finding the words to describe what's going on in her life.

Such a person may well come across as self-contradicting, vacillating, making excuses for an abuser, finding reasons to remain stuck in the inertia -- all very frustrating for someone looking in from the outside, but all normal for an abused woman under a lot of stress. It is said that it takes seven attempts for any given woman, on average, to leave an abuser. That means six failed decisions and six occasions where she may have worked up the nerve and had her courage fail her. It can be a long process, and above all, a woman in this situation needs unconditional support.

WannaBe, no-one is saying that trolls shouldn't be outed. We're saying that if you suspect a troll, you should report it to MNHQ in line with their policy.

Or perhaps you are 'intrigued' that MNHQ has the policy they do? Because your beef is with them, if you're claiming you should be allowed to shout TROLL in-thread.

My suggestion is that people who are saying upfront, on this thread, that they have no intention of adhering to the site policies, should perhaps be banned, yes. That's a standard banning offence on most sites; stated refusal to adhere to site rules.

FWIW, I dislike troll hunters more than I dislike trolls. Sometimes it feels as if there is a gang mentality on MN, where the vulnerable are subjected to the most awful interrogations, the likes of which would cause the most confident poster to crumble, let alone confused and frightened women who are in themselves not always certain that they will be believed or are making much sense.

speaking as another poster who invested a lot of time in CVQ (more fool me) I have been more reserved about the amount of time I will give to any single poster now. I am slow to shout troll in most cases (apart from Crystal123 who is a different type of troll, imo) as I also believe that, whether a poster is genuine or not, someone else may benefit from the advice given.

In the case of OTSBH - although her story was one of the worst I have read on here, she did not come across as a troll but as a genuinely squashed-down person who suddenly came out of the fug of personality sublimation to realise exactly how badly she had been treated when she saw other people's reactions. BUT - even if she were a troll, the info and links and help she was given would STILL be of benefit to other posters in similar case.

I think dizietsma has a point, tbh - but it ain't ever going to happen.

That's right, thumbwitch, because people are stubborn and think they have a "right" to troll call if they "want" to even if it doesn't adhere to site rules and policies... Massive sense of entitlement when you really think about it. I'm sure some troll callers will try to prove that it's not about that... stubbornness again.

Stop troll calling. You can't be sure. Let mnhq decide that instead of calling names like on a playground so you can have an ego boost if you turn out to be right.

Could there not be a policy at MNHQ that anybody who is accused of being a troll could contact MNHQ and give their full name, address etc, so that MNHQ could then say to us:- Not a troll or, yes a troll.
CVQ never gave such details to anybody, although Psychomum did have a mobile number.

DutchOma - If the troll-callers are to be believed, then MN is awash with them and MNHQ would have to spend all their time validating requests.

And some people may not want their RL details associated with an MN name, especially those in vulnerable situations or abusive relationships. Doesn't make them a troll if they refuse to share the details...

True...

Just noticed this is in Relationships...how odd.

Regarding internet safety, some posters on here are extremely lax. Especially regarding things like Justgiving pages - from one posters page, I now know the RL names of several frequent posters. I'm guessing they don't mind otherwise they wouldn't have so readily identified themselves on the JG page with both RL and MN names, but I think sometimes people don't really think about things like that....

Thebossofme - this is in relationships because this is a place where "troll calling" is most hurtful, especially when the individual is not a troll and being accused as such and in an already vulnerable position.

Imagine... you're in a RL support group and someone comes in and shares a story and is very upset... you don't believe it. People are giving really good advice... advice that others in the group are benefitting from, too (different on MN as loads of people, even not in the group/on the thread can easily benefit from the advice and links, just by googling)... anyway, would you say out loud to that person "I think you're lying/making this up" ??
Seriously, it's just social skills.

Starexpat - sorry, was clearly having an exceptionally stupid moment there, makes complete sense.

What I particularly hate about troll-calling is the intense smuggery that goes with it. As if its a valuable life-skill. Personally, I'd hate to have such a suspicious mind...

Exactly thebossofme. It is the smugness/smuggery. Like, "I'm so above this and can sniff out a troll anywhere. I say it's a troll, I have a right to say whatever I want, whenever I want"

I'll say it again, it's a serious lack of social skills. And yes, I'd say that in a RL situation.

Agree with OP by and large. I don't bother responding to threads if I suspect the poster is not genuine.

It doesn't matter what the subject is, if you suspect someone of trolling then report the thread.

I have reported one recently along with my suspicions. Apparently i was not the first and there were no on the actual thread.

dizi - have you been here long?

Sometimes it's not a troll thread but a long term attention seeker who people meet (as millions of other people all over the internet do) and get to know.

There have been several long term posters who have turned out to be trolls (lavenderr, Hilllls, CVQ, dizzymare - to name a few)

WhiteNoise - in the grand scheme of things, that is a teeny-tiny percentage of posters, experience suggests that in the troll vs not-troll debate, not-troll is more probable.

Gosh, terrible grammar - you get my drift, I hope.

Threeblondboys - Thanks for the concern. I haven't because that would seem to me to be attacking them but behind their back. In RL I'm cautiously trying to keep things stable. It seems to be much more messy out here than in the black and white of a post.

Starexpat, great posts, especially the one at 8:44 ish.

For the love of god, have you seen the troll thread that's started?
I really hope it isn't one of the posters on this thread who's started it to make a point.

I made my very first post on here under another name, posting about a problem I was having with my OH, and wanting some advice on how to deal with it.

A few sensible posters gave me some valuable and useful advice, but the majority of people yelled troll and gave me and my OH all sorts of abuse, so much so that he actually came on here to defend himself.

I decided to stick around but take another name, but this very fact has actually caused us to have a few arguments, as he can;t understand why I want to "associate" with such people, after our experience. I do understand his point, but I feel that I can help on people's threads. But I am very very wary of posting my own problems after what happened to us.

Your "troll" reactions have real ramifications on people's lives. Real people - like me.

Think about that before you yell troll.