'But We Took You to Stately Homes' Part 2...a thread for adult children of abusive families

[therealsmithfield]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parent?s behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotional abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesnt have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure wether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts;.

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

follow up to pages first thread

Im sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out grin. I personally dont claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will recieve a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

Smithfield I think you did trigger me a bit last time. But please don't feel bad for a minute! You were going through hell at work and had every right to be consumed with how you were going to deal with your boss (and you gave him what for, hooray! - can't be long until you leave now?).

I'm grateful to you and others here, because the fact is, I didn't even know what a trigger was before I posted here, and now I'm recognising them all the time! I'm therefore starting to separate reality from reflection, if that makes sense. And I am happier for it, because if something upsets me, my brain does a little mental step back and I think, "Is this a real reason to be upset, or has this just some other feeling coming to the surface, and I'm using this event to vent some buried hurt/resentment that's actually got nothing to do with what's happening now?". It's made my relationship with DD and DH these last few weeks so much easier.

I went off last time because I was upset. I was upset with other stuff in my life already, but you did trigger the BOF dichotomy, Smithfield On the one hand, you singularly failed to recognise that I am one of the greatest living legal minds of modern times and did not give me sufficient praise for my sage advice! On the other hand, you saw right through me and realised what I was saying was shit, that my opinions mean shit, that I am shit, so you are one more person who chose not to hear BOF and she crawled back into the dark room. And let's not forget Narc BOF, I mean, it didn't matter that you were going through a most difficult and traumatic situation, it was all about me me me....... Anyway, I did realise what a prat I'd been after a day or two, which is why I lurked for a bit then came back to post. I'm not saying I won't ever get upset again, I will, I know, but hopefully I'll cut out the Greta Garbo act next time.

It's Friday and the sun's shining. Hope today's a better day for everyone

What I meant to add is that the dichotomy thing is just a reflection of my upbringing. I had to be top of the class/a perfectionist, because the consequences for not being were punishment derision; and perhaps, when I did well, if I was lucky, I'd get some of my parents' twisted form of approval (ie, I made them feel good). But I didn't get the emotional support from them that allowed me to have any confidence in my abilities or allow myself to be content in being "just good enough". I was either great/a winner or shit/a failure. It had to be As, Bs weren't good enough. Black or white, no shades of grey. And it wasn't enough to be content in my own achievements, I've never been equipped to be so, I needed outside praise and validation. Hence, Smithfield if I had any shades of grey in me, I'd just have been content to give some advice to you and let you get on with it, content that I hadn't said anything stupid, but happy in myself to have offered some help, and content to let you just do what was right for you without having to lavish gratitude on me.

It's no wonder I've always taken 2 steps forward and three steps back in life, the dichotomy really is self sabotaging.

Smithfield I really want to say huge apologies if I made you feel bad for disappearing before. Like I said, you did actually help me.

Goodbye Greta, hello Doris Day!!!

Hi all, I would like to post myself, when things have settled down with yesterdays upset!

I hope that you are all well x

refreshers I will let you into a secret. I knew I had triggered you because I have been triggered myself in exactly the same way many many times. Feeling diminished (tick) ignored (tick) that others arent impressed (tick). Its hellish when it happens because at the time it is my reality. Down the slide I go. I now know Im not alone with this so thankyou
I am sure if everyone was honest they would all say the same.
It is partly human nature to want external validation though isnt it. I mean people want careers, nice things nice homes.
problem is you and I (most statley homers)never got our internal validation from our parents. Everything they loved or approved of us for was conditional. So no validation for being BOF or plain smithfield then and so we are like empty pots, relying too heavily on the external bit to get filled up.
I think your top lawyer hat (of which you should be incredibly proud btw) needs to rest on a peg for now because guess what? You dont need it BOF you and I are both 'good enough' as we are. I want to give myslef permission to be just 'good enough' right now. So Im hoping by giving you permission I am extending that to myself too.

See Im not even going to apologise for my typos today.

Hi all, am sorry things seem to have 'kicked off' on here again. It just seemed to come out of the blue, an attack from 'left side' or outfield or whatever the phrase is.

Grace, I think you're right in that things like this are inevitable from time to time. And they are a learning experience for us all.

I have to say that I don't seem to get triggered by posts on here, more by people and situations in RL. But like refreshers said, a huge step forward is recognising that there are triggers all around us all the time, and realising when one has been triggered as that is when one develops a bit more insight into oneself.

Anyway, I am glad the thread is still going strong and people feel ok to keep posting. MH, I hope you will post again.

It's a beautiful day, hope you all can find a moment to sit outside and enjoy it.

Right that's it Im really triggered now it's raining here, and apparently sunshine everywhere else.

My comments were not aimed at anyone but said in anger and hurt. Perhaps I have been triggered too?

But when I feel someone has been personally attacked and verbally abused I will defend them. Perhaps because I never was defended as a child.

I have always found Diving's posts insightful and I know she is hurting. She is entitled to dislike someone. However I felt her words were hurtful and unneccesary when she could have just ignored offending posts

I apologise if my comments offended anyone

Grace I am deeply sorry if you feel I have abused you either invertly or directly. I certainly did not intend it that way.

I was triggered massively. I even snapped at my ds this morning for no reason other than he didn't want to eat his cereal , he was really upset

I know the trigger was that when my adoptive father spoke rudely and agressively to me, no one defended me. I had no one to turn to. These things upset me hugely, but it is not personal against anyone.

rose You poor mite. Its ok it really is. I understand exactly why you reacted as you did. And I dont blame you for doing so.
You know what though. Use this time to get in touch with all that sadness you felt at being left undefended beacuse sometimes it needs digging up, unearthing. It's frightening to feel it but also very healing. Have a good cry about it. Be kind to yourself. More importantly remind yourself you are no longer back there.
You are safe now Rose. And you dont need to ever feel like that again. You stood up for yourself yesterday because now your an adult you can.

Rose, I very much appreciate you speaking out about diving's posts. I know she is in a bad place but I don't think that means she is allowed to lash out at people on here, me or anyone really.

Grace, I am 100% sure that Rose was not trying to abuse you in any way, overtly or implicitly.

Smithfield, if I could send some sunshine your way, i would do it in an instant. In fact it might be coming your way now as we are starting to cloud over.

And it is true that we are not here to be friends, we are entitled to dislike other posters, although I personally have never felt I disliked another poster as I don't think you can judge a whole personality simply on the basis of their posts. But I cannnot always relate to a person's posts in which case I feel I can't respond. I don't think turning on each other on this thread is at all helpful, not even to the attacker, even though they may temporarily feel better for getting their anger out, but it will have been directed at a scapegoat.

Am off out now for lunch with DH. Take care of yourselves everyone.

Thanks guys feeling better now already!

Although I still get triggered, it doesn't last as long or affect me as deepy as it used to. Same with that phone call with my GM last week. After about 12 hours I shrugged it off and got on with my life. Previously it would have led to vicious arguments, sleepless nights and weeks of hurt. Things are getting better. I realise that I don't really love her and I certainly don't need her. I haven't seen or heard from my SGF for a year and I haven't missed him one jot. That speaks volumes really. I would miss the important people in my life hugely if they went for a year e.g. my family, ILs, close friends. I have been thinking recently that is less about who is wrong and who is right, or who is bad and who is good. It is just merely a relationship that hasn't worked and doesn't provide me with love, security, opportunity for growth and mutual affection and enjoyment of each others company. To me that is what a relationship is about

Now I feel the problem is that I can let go but my GM won't. I know it is because she can't let go of her source of narc supply and not because she deeply misses or loves me. I can handle that now and accept it, I just wish she could let go and move on to a new source.

I am even prepared to have very LC rather than NC with strict boundaries. Then she gets her supply and my mind is eased that if there is a glimmer of true affection for me and my family, I am allowing her to keep some form of contact. Because somehow I know it is not black and white. That even malignant narcissists may have moments of clarity and the false self briefly dissolves and the horror of their loss along with their inner child who could love is allowed a brief glimpse

It is not hope, for I no longer need external validation that those very brief moments of niceness are not worth 99% of nastiness and emotional voyeurism. It is just that the humanity in me would allow her to see us maybe once a year and in the company of others. I think I am strong enough to handle that

If she could just let go and accept that then I feel some kind of truce could be met

Grace realise my words of 'sorry if you feel I abused you' sound typically narcissistic and turn the responsibility back to you

I am sorry I abused you, I just wanted you to know that my comments were genuinely not directed at you but were anger at the dark turn of the thread yesterday.

Please don't worry, Rose - and thank you for caring

I absolutely loved what you wrote half an hour ago! The speed with which you're letting go of the b&w thinking is startling; it's a joy to see and I'm sure will ease your life in many ways.

Obviously we're all sensitive and trigger-happy here: it's part of the reason why we're here! For myself, I have to pick up on a slight wherever possible, I've got 50 years of 'just taking it' to overcome ... it's part of my behavioural training, iyswim. I aim to ask for clarity without aggression - and very much hope you'll all let me know if I fail in that.

No sunshine here. Perfect DIY weather, unfortunately, so I'd better get on with it!

LOL at trigger-happy - indeed

You know you are so right Grace about after 'just taking it', you deserve to ask for clarity. This can be done without agression though and I am learning from this. I am slowly developing enough confidence to assert myself without fearing negative consequences or indeed being agressive. There is a difference. I stuck up for myself yesterday (and for Vanilla) but I could have been calmer and less trigger happy so to speak

I don't think there is any right way to heal from abuse. We all mudle through and I would like to add that although I am trying to negotiate some contact with my GM with very strict boundaries, in no way does this mean that I think this is the right way. It just suits me at the moment. I suppose there is still a bit of guilt - however if she over steps those boundaries there is not enough guilt to stop me from sending her packing

Oh, good things seem to have settled down, and you have all done so well in self insight, will post later x

Rose, your post earlier 13.51 was really good, I think at the moment we're in the same place. I also feel that even though I get triggered a lot, I seem to get over it far quicker and the depressions are less deep.

I also feel that the people with whom I have gone NC or LC, I don't miss at all. And as you said it is not that all those people are bad. It is our relationship that does not work, not for me anyway. All those people made me feel bad after spending time with them. I have now reduced my circle of relationships, but now it mostly consists of people who make me feel good after spending time with them. I do feel lonely at times and I definately need to widen my circle of relationships but I suppose it's better to do that slowly and carefully rather than rush headlong into things out of desperation. And I'm learning all the time. I have recently sent an email to the mum friend I fell out with last year. I can see in hindsight it was not all her fault and whilst I'm not seeking to resume our friendship, it clears my conscience to apologise for my part in our falling out.

Rose, I think you deserve a big pat on the back and round of applause for the amazing progess you have made on your journey.

Had a huge breakthrough with ds today. Instead of half-listening, flying off the handle I really tuned into what he was saying. It turned out to be something very significant.
The other long weekend we went to visit friends. It was not a good experience. Triggers galore for me. I was too busy people pleasing meeting others needs though before listening to mine let alone my children.
This is what I do with middle db, when I visit. I want to be liked.
My not good enough setting went on spin cycle. I was seeing these friends and their two children as my brother and his family.
Their lifestyle possessions, looks, social standing vs mine and my families.
The thing was I got so caught up in it all, as in my own feelings I wasnt there for ds who basically got bullied the whole weekend by my friends two dcs.
I kept saying at the time 'you need to stand up for yourself', I said it because I didnt want to deal with the difficult feelings it brought up for me. So instead of JUST listening to him I pushed the negative feelings away by brushing him off.
I just didnt want him to be the 'bullied' one, the one that always got picked on and never stood up for herself just like me .
Since that weekend then he has started asking me to buy spinach I took no notice (part of his chitter chatter).
But today in the car he got upset for realising dd and I had gone off and done something together while he was at school.
He shouted, 'you left me out, you left me out..you dont even like me'.
I kept repeating calmly 'that yes I did like him...etc'.
When we got home it all came out...about the my friends dcs, how they had trapped him in their toy room . He'd been having bad dreams about it. .
I just sat and listened. That was all he wanted. Just to be heard. Then held.

sorry for changing topic, just needed to get it down. I had a huge cry over it. Partially relief for feeling closer with ds, and partially because I allowed myself to feel the hurt of having no-one stand up for me when I was too small to be able to myself.
The small me who had nowhere to go with all that trauma and hurt.
At least I can learn from their (my own parents) inability to parent and hopefully learn to become a better parent myself.

You didn't change topic, smithfield, your post was all about the ripple effects of the abuse you suffered and how those ripples hurt your son. You've overcome another one of those now, by recognising what happened and how to help your child.

Was the spinach to make him stronger? Bless!

Thanks grace yes. Child logic, I eat spinach, I get stronger, fight off bullies and mummy and daddy will approve .

But at least we got to the bottom of it and he is a lot happier. Until next mine in minefield that is parenting
The minefield without a map.

Rose it's really interesting what you said earlier about not missing your SGF one jot. I've barely seen or spoken to my brother in over 5 years. We have the odd bit of contact, birthday cards and the like, but that's all. We used to be really close, or I thought we were. But since we fell out and stopped talking, I barely think about him let alone miss him. A lot of our relationship was all about him, I realise he didn't really give anything back to me. Same with my older sis, with whom I've not spoken to in nearly a year (although she is altogether a nastier piece of work than bro). Recently. I've thought about trying to make up with bro, since I think I did him an injustice when we fell out and also because I believe he bore the worst of my parents' abuses in some ways. But a large part of me wonders why I should do this? I don't think our relationship will be any different than it was before if we did resume regular contact. It's the whole "blood is thicker than water" thing, but what is the point of family where there is no real family feeling?

Smithfield that post was both heartbreaking and uplifting because you made your breakthrough and your DS got the hugs he really needed. The wanting one's DCs to stand up for themselves is a killer, isn't it? I know I do this a lot with DD and she's only 2. She's mild mannered and reticent around other children, and I'm always pushing her to stand up for herself, especially in the playground when other kids push in front of her. When she won't, I become a snarling tigress telling other kids off for pushing in - I usually come away feeling utterly childish and embarrassed. Again, part of me knows I'm projecting, it's my childhood battles I'm often fighting, and I can win cos I'm bigger than the other kids now . I find this whole issue really difficult to deal with, because the horror of childhood bullying is one of the (many) things that I've never got over. Probably because as a child, I too had nobody to turn to for comfort. So good for you, you were there for your DS and you heard him. He'll meet a lot of horrible people in his life, but he'll always have you to hear him and comfort him.

BOF I relate to this because this is where I am up to with 'all' my siblings. I try so hard but get nothing back. Your phrase comes to mind 'one way traffic'.
I still see middle db but in all honesty I question my motivations because it takes me ages to get over the visits emotionally.
Its my family who then suffer.
Dont have any answers but for me it is one of the things coming to the fore and it feels good to know someone else can relate to it too. Sadly.