'But We Took You to Stately Homes' Part 2...a thread for adult children of abusive families

[therealsmithfield]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parent?s behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotional abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesnt have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure wether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts;.

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

follow up to pages first thread

Im sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out grin. I personally dont claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will recieve a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

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My therapy is based on this inner child thing. I am loving it! I am finding that far from being demonic, the child me is just so bright and funny, and I've fallen in love with her a little bit! I guess that's the point.

It is made so much easier because my dd is 5. I have a playmate....so good for her too. last night we were bonkers babies, doing daft robot walks around the house with knickers on our heads. She laughed and laughed, and so did my 5 year old self.

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diving, I am loving your inner child work, glad that your mate is not a sprite or spirit from hell, lol, glad it is not just me with the typo's x x x

Diving, thank you for your response and I know what you are saying is right. But sometimes I don't want to have to be the mother to myself that I never had. I want somebody else to be my mother. I need somebody else to be my mother. It's just not the same if I do it myself. A bit like if you try and tickle yourself I suppose.

It's great that you can connect with your inner child and do things with your DD like you have described. But I just find DD's games, and sometimes DD herself so boring. There, I've said it. I know it's an awful thing to say, but I do find DD boring. She just talks and talks and talks, and I am supposed to listen and listen and listen and sometimes I feel like killing myself. DS is so different. He doesn't talk constantly but when he does he is funny and often thoughtful. DD just talks without thinking most of the time and a lot of what she says is just boring, not even funny, thoughtful or interesting. I remember a few years ago there was an article in the DM by a mother who said she found her children boring and she got shot down in flames for it. But I can relate to her. I find DD boring. We are two very very different personalities and we don't really complement each other at all. Whereas DS and I are far more similar, quieter, more thoughtful, less attention seeking. So I simply could not do the sort of things you have described with my DD, she would drive me potty with her incessant talk about fairyland and other drivel.

It doesn't mean I don't love her because I do. But my inner child cannot connect with DD at all. We are too different and if we had been children at the same time, we would most likely have not been friends.

Oh diving...I love that. The den and the sandwiches and the teddy crisps.
Im going to do this more myself especially with not having the spectre of work hanging ove my head (very soon) and I know how lucky I am to have this opportunity.
Bit jealous of your lovely DH [grin}

vanilla My ds does the talking thing...I am reading a book which I have found very very good, called 'tears and tantrums'. It is helping me understand my ds better. It suggests that 'tireless chat thing' (which is also normal for this age?) can be due to anxiety. I'd never thought before but it helps for me to get a better connection with ds if I can start to understand him better.
Maybe the part of dd which you see as boring or tiring is the part of 'yourself' that got rejected as a child and you therefore reject in dd?
For me with my ds it's the talking but also the crying/whinning (again relatively normal in his age group) But this behaviour grates for me and the more it grates the harder it becomes to really connect with him.
I have realised it is not him I am not connectin with or rejecting but part of myslef.
I was not allowed to cry as a child. It made my parents angry. It reppelled them in fact.
So it follows I feel angered when ds displays this behaviour .
I think understanding what was going on with me and ds has helped immensley. If I can understand and accept this side of ds I will also be able accept myself better.

By the way I meant I would be doing the den thing with dd and ds more (ahem) not by myself . Although in retrosepct not a bad idea . I am still determined one day to buy myself a paddington bear or maybe a dolls house.

myslef? ok think I will bow out now..too late too much rose vino and way too many typos. Tis catching.

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Vanilla, I am sorry that your relationship with your daughter is not going well right now. How do you think you can change things?

One thing I have been doing with my dd, is to play clapping games with her and naughts and crosses, I did it to begin with as she was driving us all potty complaining she was bored, there is lots to do, she really just wanted attention, and did not have the maturity to understand that herself. So I have been doing the clapping game with her, to distract her, as if she gets bored, she will do something destructive, or irritate her sister for fun!

Anyways, I don't want to go on too much, and bore you Vanilla, what I want to say is that I actually got to enjoy the clapping game with her in the end, and we ended up having fun in the end!

I wonder why your daughter feels the need to go on and on and on talking incessantly? does she feel heard? I wonder why she spends a lot of time in a fantasy land, does she not like real life? Most normal children enjoy some level of fantasy play, I would not worry too much as long as it is not all the time!

vanilla I also wonder if your mother being around and so much in the picture when you had dd has really 'injured' your bonding with her. This certainly applied with me and ds. My mum 'swooping' down to help out. When really she wanted to immerse herself in the limelight.
Her help was only concerned with ds. bathing him, rocking him to sleep, holding him. She stayed for several months . She effectively sabotaged my bonding time with ds. I cant get that time back and now ds needs more than just holding, he needs me to fully accept him and reassure him that I will never dismiss his feelings or needs.
Which I will be honest is bloody hard at times.
I dont know what input your mother had but I suspect it was similar. To nudge you out of the way to get to dd?
As a result do you think there could be some suppressed rage toward dd? Which blocks your bonding with her, because this would be exactly how it would have felt for you when your dsis's came along.
It is right what mummie says you have to look objectively at dd's behaviour and uncover what it is telling you. She loves and desperately wants the connection with you just like you wanted with your mum.

diving, I am really shocked, hurt and surprised at your response to me. I don't think I deserve such a vitriolic response. I felt awful for posting what i did but it was the truth and this thread is the one place I have felt I can speak the truth and not be judged or shot down in flames. Have you thought about why my post triggered such a disproportionate response from you? I actually can't believe what you've written about me, especially on this particular thread. And of course there is absolutely no obligation on you to read anything I post, or on anyone else really.

Smithfield, as soon as I read your suggestion that DD's incessant chatter could be due to anxiety, I knew you had hit the nail on the head. DD is trying to connect with me by her chatter, she wants me to be interested in her, notice her, pay attention to her and that is her way of doing it. Other children might seek attention by being naughty etc but this is DD's way. As soon as I had written that post last night I felt so guilty. And strangely enough DD and I ended up in my bedroom, snuggled up in bed because it was so cold, having a chat, which I actually really enjoyed and didn't find boring.

MH, I think you have also hit the nail on the head, I think DD will keep talking until she feels heard, which she clearly does not right now.

I think perhaps that I am bored with day to day life in general, not just with DD, I need more adult company and conversation during the day and I am sure that if I did get that, I would be happy to listen to DD's talk about fairyland etc.

smithfield, yes you are absolutely right, after DD was born my mother came to stay to 'help' and basically took over everything apart from feeding. She was there for 3 weeks. But I am not totally sure if it was because of her that i failed to bond with DD. I think it would possibly have happened anyway because I remember I was totally numb after I had DD, I couldn't feel anything, and I had severe PND and I think that interfered with the bonding more than anything.

I can't really remember what I was like as a child in terms of being chatty. Most young children seem to be very chatty at home even if they are shy and quiet outside. I was probably very chatty with my mother and she probably told me to be quiet and go away and never really paid me the attention I was seeking. And eventually I did just give up trying to talk to her, trying to find a connection with her, because I could probably sense there was no bond between us and I was trying to create one. But my mother wasn't interested in me at all.

Thank you smithfield and MH, i think you are absolutely right in that once I can understand why DD is constantly talking I will be able to cope with it better. She is simply trying to feel a connection with me. It makes so much sense.

This is such an interesting discussion. Like you, Vanilla I often find parenting boring and some of my DD's demands really irritating. I recognised a while ago that it is her neediness that really irritates me because I hate that quality in myself. I want DD to be strong and independent, I don't want her to grow up and be like me, constantly craving and needing love and attention (and, in the past, getting such attention with a lot of abusive strings attached). But I need to keep reminding myself that she's just a toddler, she is not ready just to be her own person and she's got nobody else to turn to but me (or DH) for all her needs, whether they are big, like needing food, or trivial, like having the same Thomas the Tank Engine story read to her 5 times in a row! And the way to make her not like me and to make her a confident grown up is to give her the attention she craves now and for her to grow up knowing that DH and I will always be there for her and interested in things she is interested in.

Diving I love your den game, may well borrow that idea this pm! I do all sorts of things with my DD and sometimes will force myself to take her to a class, play a game, just go to the park even, because my parents did NONE of these things with me. Sometimes I feel so low I don't want to leave the house or talk to DD but I feel I must do it because she deserves to have my attention and my interest and to give her as much experience of life as I can, I brought her into the world I can't just ignore her need for attention, even if it does drive me insane sometimes.

The Stately Homes title always makes me smile because my parents didn't do that or anything else. They literally did jack shit with us. My father never once took us to the park to kick a football around or just enjoy the outdoors. Yet one of his big conceits and boasts in life is what a sportsman he was as a young man. And one of his constant complaints about us as children was that we were not sporty and fat lumps - whilst at the same time, preventing us going out to play with other kids and both he and my mother using food as a form of abuse. We couldn't win. My younger Dsis and I were musical and (due to the brilliant state school system of the '70s) able to learn instruments with free school teaching, played in various orchestras, concerts etc (teachers or my older brother taking us to and from these events - never my parents). Parents never attended a concert or showed any interest. In fact, quite the opposite, my dad was always telling us to shut up when we practised and my mother actively made fun of our efforts. Our music teachers and orchestra groups were derided as trivial or treated with suspicion (my disgusting father suggested that my Dsis wanted to sleep with one of her teachers which is why she wanted to go to a particular music group - she was 15).

Sorry that turned into an incoherent ramble and will post this as need to pick up DD and purchase teddy crisps! I think what I was trying to get at in general is that part of me not being like my parents and hopefully reversing their legacy is to be super interested in my DD even if I don't always feel like it. Go to go!

refreshers, I think what I find boring is being a SAHM. Especially now DS is older, very happy and settled at nursery, i feel a bit redundant and bored and because I haven't had a particularly stimulating or interesting day, I then find DD's chatter boring and irritating as what I really need and want is an adult to talk to.

But what you said about your toddler reminded me of how I used to feel DD was 'stalking' me when she was younger! Everywhere I went, she would follow, even to the loo, and this was when she was definately old enough to be fine on her own whilst I popped to the loo upstairs. I know it was due to her feeling anxious and insecure about me and sensing there was no bond between us. If I was not physically near her, she felt anxious and came to find me. Knowing the theory is good, but in practise, when I'm tired and drained and not coping with my own issues, it is very, very hard to keep in mind why DD is behaving this way and not let it get to me and feel irritated and impatient with her.

Like your parents, mine did nothing with me either, never took me anywhere or did anything with me. And I certainly never had my mother's sole, undivided attention, ever. In fact, after she had spent that 3 weeks staying with me after DD was born, she herself said it was the first time she had spent any time with just me without my sisters being around. The full meaning behind her observation was clearly lost on her. She clearly didn't think there was anything wrong or amiss about a mother not having spent any time alone with one of her daughter's until that daughter was 33 years old.

Despite what I have already said on here, I do spend time with DD. I make a point of making sure she and I spend time alone every now and then, mostly at the weekend when DH can have DS. My mother never did that. In fact even if we had the opportunity to eg go on a walk together, she would always ask one or both of my sisters along and if they couldn't come then we wouldn't go. It was like she wanted to avoid being alone with me at all costs. (No wonder if have little confidence in making friends, if my own mother never wanted to spend time with me why would anybody else?) I don't do that with DD. It's when we are alone that i do actually enjoy her company.

vanilla my ds still follows me to the loo. he is 5. Its ok though, Im guessing he wont still be doing it at 30. Then I will be
When dd is all grown up you may miss her dependency and she will not be little forever.

refreshers You wrote;

I recognised a while ago that it is her neediness that really irritates me because I hate that quality in myself. I want DD to be strong and independent, I don't want her to grow up and be like me, constantly craving and needing love and attention

This hits the nail on the head for me and that is why this inner child work is so very important. Healing the relationship with yourself will in thurn heal the relationships with our own children.
Your parents may have rejected or shamed (punished you) for showing neediness. So you reject that in yourself. Even adults have needs. You are not needy just because you want positives strokes from others but just human (tis all).
Hope you and dd enjoy your crisps.

diving Do you need to talk? Im here
Procrastinating like yourself..over my handover reports which perfectionist me 'need to war and peace instead of 'good enough' reports. So not achieving much.
Would be glad of the company.

Vanilla it seems to me that you had a low moment and aired your thoughts (as this is what this thread is for) but it triggered Diving in some way

I may be wrong but people post here when they are feeling vulnerable or low and that these darker thoughts may not be representative of the whole picture

All mothers have thoughts like this at times I am sure of it, but not everyone will admit it. Who hasn't been irritated by whining, incessant chatter and clinginess when tired and low?

To me it seems like the dangerous black and white thinking, the expectation that we should be perfect mothers or awful mothers.

I feel unqualified to join this discussion, not being a parent. But I'm still reacting to your posts, so here goes. I felt really jealous - and, irrationally, annoyed - when I read about some of you having fun with your inner child, being childlike and playing childish games. My own mother is a permanent child. She was always great at games: make-believe dens & ships galore, even to the extent that she pushed me to fantasise more than I naturally did. She used this as a parental distraction technique.

One moment I recall is where she was trying to get rid of me (being needy, no doubt) by telling me my doll was crying. "Don't be silly, mummy, she's a doll, she only does pretend crying!" Eventually I cottoned on that the day would go smoother if I played along, so I went and 'comforted' my doll. So eager was I to please, I then went through a lengthy phase of hearing my dolls crying. The other adults around me must have thought I'd regressed developmentally!

Now, there's nothing wrong with distracting a child through play. What chimes with me is the other theme of your posts above - neediness, stemming from the lack of genuine parental care. In my case, child-play probably represents a sort of emotional fobbing-off. Which would explain why I felt jealous that your inner children can play so freely & delightedly! I don't want to give the impression that I don't know how to play; I do. I am rich in imagination, and thank my mother for that.

Needy, though - oh, yes! All my partners have accused me of being 'needy' and they had a point. More exactly, I react very badly to being fobbed off. I'm also aware that my current pet - the last in a long line of unloved-cat adoptions, I swear! - appealed to me precisely because she was constantly dismissed, rejected & fobbed off. By my own mother, no less. She's still INFURIATINGLY anxious for attention; she demands it (because she doesn't know how to 'win' it), scratching & whining ... she drives me nuts, yet I know my annoyance is a direct analogue for my own ishoos. I want to prove - to myself, though the cat will also benefit - that steady, non-dramatic, care & concern can fix this problem & lead to trust, wellbeing & contentment.

Now I'm scared some of you will think I'm equating a cat with a child! I'm not .
Just brain-dumping.

Rose, you are right. I was feeling very low, very needy of a mother myself and I just could not cope with DD's neediness at the same time. Thank you for understanding.

I am going to stand up for myself (even though I'm scared) and say to diving that her post really, really upset me. I do not deserve to be talked about like that and I think the decent and right thing to do would be for diving to apologise to me.

And, yes, I have said it many times on here, and I am going to say it again. It is NOT fair that out of the 3 siblings, I was the only one who was horribly and viciously abused by my dad and ignored and neglected by my mother. Tt is a trigger point for me, and always will be. Knowing that only I was abused no longer cuts like a knife like it used to, it's more of a constant dull ache now. But it's always there, something I have to live with. And I do revisit this same issue over and over again because I cannot just accept it, become "unstuck", and move on. If I could just click my fingers and forget the unfairness of the past and move on, believe me I would. But I am constantly reminded of how differently mine and my sisters lives have turned out, due precisely to the fact that our parents treated me so differently to them. I think I am entitled to my feelings and to talk about them. I do NOT expect everyone or even anyone on here to read my every post and respond. But I do not deserve to be judged and criticised unfairly and unprovoked.

I think it is interesting though that every time I have been judged/criticised on this thread, it has always been in relation to my issues wrt my sisters. It makes me think that the issue of unfair and unequal treatment of siblings is a big, unresolved and perhaps subconscious issue for many people.

better:
< anxious for attention; she demands it (because she doesn't know how to 'win' she can now take it for granted), >

I'm really sad that diving's posts have gone.

Grace, I can understand how you might feel sometimes when reading posts on here because as you say, you are not a parent yourself. But, I don't think it is necessary to be a parent yourself in order to be in touch with your 'playful' inner child. I am a parent and I don't think I have come even vaguely close to connecting with my playful inner child. I have connected with my hurt, angry, sad, inner child. But not (yet) my playful inner child. Hopefully it will happen in time. But connecting with these different parts of yourself come through working on yourself and moving alone on your journey and I am sure it can happen whether or not you are a parent.

Have only just seen that diving's posts have gone. I don't really know what is going on, but I hope she is ok. Her post to me was very uncharacteristic and even though I am upset, I hope diving is ok.

grace I am also really sad that divings posts had gone.
your post made me feel . It made me feel like as a child you just wanted and 'needed' to be the child.
Except your mother wouldnt let you because she wanted that role.
Which makes me really .
I think you were a very perceptive, highly intelligent child who 'got' the fact the play was all about her not you.
No wonder your siblings are so duped by her, or that any of you are so afraid of hurting her. She really is the child of your family isnt she. None of you got a look in.

diving If you want to you can email me on [email protected].
Just wanting to know if you are ok. No pressure