I shouldn't have looked, but I did...............................................

[curiositykilledthecat]

At some old work diaries/journals belonging to dh.

BTW, I am a v regular Mumsnetter, but really had to go "underground for this!"

I came across the journals when I was having a tidy up and my curiosity got the better of me. He's always said I can look at anything of his - I haven't before and wish I'd stuck to that rule .

So, we were "courting" from September 1997, got engaged January 2000 and married July 2000.

The following is some of the stuff that he wrote during this time - I've changed the names, (just in case!) and am referring to myself as Sue.

There are lots of references to "Mary" or a "Mary type". This was someone he went out with for a couple of months before he met me. It didn't work out (not sure why) - she was from the US and went back there to live.

1997
"Must make more space for Sue. Also, make it a rule to chat up one woman per day".

"The excitement isn't there (referring to me) that there should be. So use her - because she's not destructive. It's a neutral thing at worst."

May 1998

"Want and have Sue. Want and don't have Mary - no reason why I shouldn't find her, it's only been a year".

July 1998
"I've got Sue for sex and Diane (this was an ex long term partner) for companionship"

October 1998
"Waitress Mandy has nice tits and is interested. Estate Agent Sarah looks like a model and is interested. Louise is young and into me. Jenny is a really nice girl with a good brain who likes me. Liz might be into a f* every now and then. There's no reason why I shouldn't do anything about the above." (meaning I didn't matter I assume).

Notice how I figure nowhere on the above list, although there are a few references elsewhere about me being good in bed).

Oct 1998
"Marriage - Mary type - 25 year old. One offs (as in 1 night stands) - yes."

I was referred to in a list with Mary and Sarah, but he wrote a really detailed "review" about Sarah - reasons why he thought she was suitable for him etc etc.

November 1998
"It would be good to meet someone and this is the season for it".

Dec 1998
"Where's the excitement? Still with the Mary type".

Throughout 1999, he still seems to be hankering after Mary and even in November 1999 ( a few weeks before he asked me to marry him) - clearly she's still the type he really wants to marry.

I don't see any definite references to him actually sleeping with someone else, but some things make me a bit suspicious.

I know I shouldn't have looked, I know it's 5 years on, but I'm really hurt. He's always banging on about how much he's always loved me blah blah blah.

I don't know what to do about it either.

Your honest thoughts appreciated (don't mind of they are searingly honest, but be a bit gentle with me).

ps - as you can see from the time of this post, I can't sleep!

forget about it

I'm sorry you feel so rotten and hurt, curious. I would feel the same in your position. Try not to do or say anything in a rush, remember you have a good marriage and children. If it's eating you up I'd try to discuss it with him, trying to stay calm if possible.

HTH, sorry I don't have any blinding advice, just wanting you to know I'm thinking of you.

ssd x x x

This is bringing to mind Effi Briest, the great German 19th century novel of adultery. It centres around the fact that Effi has an affair with a man she doesn't even love or respect very much, then dumps him and after suffering agonies of guilt, resolves to put it all behind her and be a better person - which she does, and goes on to be a wonderful wife and mother with a happy family. Seven years later, Briest (her husband) finds her letters to her lover and after torturing himself with what to do's, feels compelled to challenge the man to a duel. He kills the bloke, divorces Effi and ruins everyone's lives - his own, his child's, Effi's, her former lover's, her parent's, etc., for the sake of something that happened seven years before, of which she was deeply ashamed, and which meant nothing.

You might want to read it - it's by Theodore Fontane. You'll have plenty of time, because SN is right - you can't really address this immediately while your DH is still in mourning for his father.

Have you any feeling that he is cheating on you now?

My DP's sister's husband told me recently that he screwed around lots when he was engaged but once he got married that was it. To him marriage meant a lot. Is you DH a bit like that, somehow marriages changes things for him, changes the way he views relationships.

I've heard quite a few people say things like this over the years - Men and Women. It's not how I view things but it is a fairly common belief.

Having lost my father recently I think I would wait a while before bringing it up and when I did I think I would go the indirect route and see how far I could get.

sobernow - no, I definitely won't be asking him about this in the near future - I lost a parent fairly recently so I know what he's going through and he needs 100% support for a good while to come.

Of course it's knocked my self esteem - I'm not sure many people would shrug their shoulders and think nothing of it. Plus, I'm putting it in the context of our relationship at the time and his behaviour with me.

I've always believed he's been faithful since we married, but there are plenty of references to hoping to be married to the "Mary" type whilst also hoping to still have sex with other people - "one offs" as he calls them.

So, I'm now having my doubts.

It ill be a while before I can tackle him about this, in the meantime I'll just have to seeth quietly as suzywong suggested.

I don't think my loss is affecting my judgement on this sobernow - it's a good point though, and one that I've mulled over since you posted it.

I am very very hurt about so obviously being second best, mainly because he was so effusive about me being his dream woman. Perhaps if he hadn't gone so overboard about it I'd be less bothered now. I always thought it was a bit ott - like he was trying to convince himself as much as me.

Seeing as I started reading, I finished the lot - carried on reading into our marriage. There's not much there it has to be said, except wanting gratuitous sex with "anyone" and on the side stuff with this "Mary" type. he'd be really stupid to write down any more than this though.

curiosity I am so sorry for what you are going through. My view will probably not be popular but here goes.
I think your current experience is absolutely the tip of the iceberg as far as men and women in relationship are concerned.
There is so much extramarital stuff going on out there . I am constantly amazed at how conservative and naive my fellow mumsnetters are in this area. I am not saying it is ok or good but it is completely normal . I am really surprised how many women (also men) think there is NO WAY their partner would ever cheat on them.
In the last month I have had a supposedly devoted husband and father -DHAF-(of a FRIEND for goodness sake) ask me to have an affair (no problem giving my answer). Another DHAF told me he had been having an affair throughout his wife's pregnancy. The women in both these cases have NO IDEA their husbands are like this.

I could give you numerous examples. I don't know where this leaves you except I say all this to make you see your dh is not that unusual. I am not sayig it is acceptable. Only you can decide whether you can live with your newfound knowledge about your husband.
I hope it all works out for you.

manutd - I think you have put forward a realistic point of view.

I have a good friend who was devastated when she discovered her adoring husband had an affair throughout her pregnancy. They have stayed together, but confidentially, she has said she will never trust him again. She thought about walking away, but decided to stay because if she had eventually met someone else, she would never trust them anyway - her ability to trust was gone, full stop. So, staying with the father of her baby was in her view, the best option as she wanted her ds to have 2 parents.

Seeing as in dh's post marriage notes there are women's names next to his note about gratuitous sex, I've definitely taken my rose tinted glasses off.

Whilst we've been happy together, we have been through some difficult experiences, which unfortunately affected my sex drive. So, if he's gone looking in the last 5 years, I've only got myself to blame I suppose.

I have to say this is the best diet I've ever been on - I've lost 11lbs in 10 days.

Curious, as they say revenge is sweet - you'll probably be looking great after losing so much weight however unintentionally! Be sure to let dh know other guys are giving you looks!(even if you don't care!).

BTW your dh has never been unfaithful whilst you are married has he? I think he's just been immature keeping his old diaries, he'd probably be really embarrassed to know you've read them.

When do you think you'll be ready to talk to him about this?

Haven't read all the replies but just wanted to say, I'm a mixture of the 2 views. I write quite an extensive diary and the thought of my dp ever reading it chills me to the bone. And it doesn't mean that what we do have/the way i am with him in reality is ungenuine or anything iykwim.

But also, if I read similar things in my dp's journal I wouldn't be able to let it lie either! Sorry, no advice to give, but if it was me I think i'd HAVE to talk to him, as someone said, it'll just burn a hole in your head otherwise.

ssd - I can't talk to him for a good while yet, given that he's just lost his Dad. In the meantime - well maybe I'll get to that "perfect 10" at this rate as I'm finding it difficult to eat. I feel traumatised.

The funny thing is, whilst I was being nosey, and shouldn't have been, it didn't occur to me that this sort of stuff would be in there, because they aren't private diaries. To me, it was a bit like looking at old school books. Some of the first stuff I came across was our arrangements for the wedding, which I had written in there, and I thought, "Ah, how lovely, I remember all that". Because I've had access to them before (albeit infrequently), I just didn't honestly expect this.

As for whether he's been faithful during our marriage - well I thought so, but let's be honest - how the hell would I really know?

Dd he want you to find them- it seems strange to me that he knows you look in them, they're open work diaries and yet he leaves them around knowing what they contain. Has he always written in shorthand, or did that only start once you were living together? I wonder whether he's almost trying to precipitate a crisis...

I read a private diary once years ago- god what a mistake that was- but it seems different to me-I knew I was reading a diary- this sounds more like looking at a calendar. And what strange things to put where they could be easily read....

I lived with someone for 7 years. We met at university. I know that he fancied someone else at university, but she didn't want him, so he settled for me ! After we broke up (about 4 years ago now) he started to go out with another woman we had both known at university - he has now married her and they have a child and living abroad.

If he had had a list at the time I think he would have put me 2nd (after the one he really really fancied, but who didn't want him) and then 3rd the woman he is married to now and has a child with. So he got his 3rd choice in the end, not his 1st or even 2nd (me) !!

I think alot of men fantasise about lots of women before they settle for the "safe bet". It is certainly true of my ex.

I am now happily married to a wonderful man and we have a gorgeous son together - I may have only been a "safe bet" too - but I don't really mind because he was also my "safe bet" - but we do actually, really, really love each other too !

He was my safe bet because I had several other "options", but chose him at the age of 35 because I knew he would be a good, faithful husband and a great father. And guess what, he is all of those things.

So, don't worry about you DH's past preferances. The fact is he chose you and that is all that matters. Be happy !!

cktc
I asked my dh about this last night (how sad am I, using our first childfree night out in agaes to discuss mumsnetters problems )

He thought similarly to Jimjams, especially when I mentioned that is Dad had recently died. He thought this could have precipitated guilty felings about how he had treated you in the past, and that he has deliberately left the diaries out knowing that you would read them, so that he could bring it all out in the open and apologise for perhaps treating you as if you were second best in the past.

He also said that even in a 35 year old, this behaviour isn't unexpected. Apparently men get pickier as they get older, so the chances that you were actually perfect for him are rare. But whilst you are not perfect, he has decided you are the most perfect thing he'll get, which is quite a good thing. Now, I was having trouble understanding that too, but then I realised that my dh didn't tick every single one of my "ideal man" boxes (if I had my way he'd be slimmer and have read a book since he left school) but that doesn't mean I think I settled for scond best in any way. In fact I think it shows that I must love him an awful lot to make the fact that he didn't tick all my boxes irellevant.

I would be SO upset, personally, and also agree that it is v odd to put all this where it could be found.
But wavering up the moment of the big decision is the stuff of just about every romantic novel so it must be pretty common. Jane Austen is full of women falling in love with dashing rotters while Mr Reliable waits patiently in the wings, only for our heroine to realise, almost too late, that Mr Reliable is actually the love of her life and Mr Fanciable (or various Mr Fs) was/were always wrong for her.
I also agree with those who say that dithering up to the point of getting married does not mean that he didn't want to do it or that he hasn't been faithful within marriage. Men are v good IME at drawing lines and separating emotional issues.
having said, that, i'd be learning shorthand too!
I also

I agree with prufrock. None of us are perfect and we shouldn't expect it in our partners.

But to read it all in black and white would really hurt.

I really appreciate everyone taking the time to post their thoughts on this thread. Very interesting to have a male perspective on it too - thanks Mr Prufrock . I really have no-one to talk to about this - I have some good friends but I just couldn't bring myself to confide something like this, however well I know and trust them.

As I said before, there wasn't much mentioned in the post marriage writings - wish it had been a bit more positive, although we've been through some tough times together. He mentions seeing his future living abroad with a "Mary" type. Nor sure where that leaves me, or when he's planning this - it looks like a long term dream.

It's making me feel quite ill, I am trying and trying to put it aside, but my head feels like it will explode. If I could pack up and go away for a week, I would, but in the current circumstances I can't.

I'd like to build a bonfire right now.

No, I don't think they were left out for me deliberately find. I think he was having a clear out and put them in a pile to put away somewhere.

Curious, is your dh a controlling type? I ask because on your first post you said he said you could look at anything of his, so you had a look at these old diaries and now you're upset. Does he like to upset you and have the upper hand? It sounds a bit like he does, otherwise why say you can look at something he must know would upset you? Also to be blunt the way he's written about various women shows he basically has no respect for women and if I were you this would concern me more than the thought of him being unfaithful. His diary makes him out to be a pompous twat TBH. Sorry to be blunt I know that sounds mean but as I was reading your first post all I could think was God what an a*. You deserve better.