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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Counting, Whenwill, Happy, AF and all of you?

110 replies

gonnabehappy · 01/04/2010 12:38

I am spending a lot of time online at the moment. It is this weekend, the second anniversary of me finding out and just over a year that husband returned home.

The advice, especially that given to Cat, is fantastic. I have read and reread your posts.

What I am fighting with is this; I still don't really know from him why he had an affair. The most I get from him is an "I don't know".

It is an uphill battle here (mainly in me!). You may recall he only returned home when OW rejected him; he choose her. He also lied about lots for months.

Should I say to him; 'why?'. Have I left it too late. I feel like I need to know. I know some stuff, he found me unattractive, sex with her was fantastic, he hated(s) our life. You know, the financial grind and hard work boys. We have little in common other than the boys now. Over the last couple of years our relationship has turned into what he told the OW it was. We are usually friends and rarely lovers. Before OW I adored him. I still love him...I think.

Counselling - tried and have not found that right counselor and money is a real problem.

Please help if you can. He has this next week off work and I am on tenterhooks.

OP posts:
HappyWoman · 15/04/2010 16:57

gonna - i have again been thinking about you a lot today.

I think what you do need to do is to see the relationship with new eyes - which is why sometimes it sounds harsh.

You are right him doing exercise is a good thing - but what is not good is the fact that you feel guilty because actually you do not want him to do that - do you?

I think again what you are doing is supressing what you really feel. It may not seem reasonable to many that you are not happy about him spending time away - and maybe in a healthy balanced relationship we could say you are 'wrong' to voice that. But who actually cares whether it is reasonable or not - you need to find the courage to actually say what you do now feel - that you dont want him to go out and play sport as much (you dont even have to have an explanation for it). What that will then do is shift the responsiblity back to him - he can either respect your wishes or not.

I think looking back i should have voiced my wishes a lot louder and clearer.

This is an area where i do feel i have changed - i will now tell h if i am not happy about him working late or going on work dos - even if it is totally 'unreasonable'!!

Please find you voice and do listen to what you are really trying to tell yourself. I think a lot of your sadness is because you know deep down you are not being true to yourself.

Gonnabehappy · 15/04/2010 18:28

Well it is only 6pm and so far this evening is shit.

He told me yesterday he was not going to footie training last night as he had a match tonight. I was fed up as I had been asked to a friend's 'Jamie at home' party. To be fair I had not mentioned it as Thursdays are usually free. I was also worried about going as I have no pennies to spend. Anyway I said nothing to husband and cancelled going.

I cancelled quite willingly, he wants to watch the debate tonight and after we sat here last night talking while the tv was on (my friend has gone away for a fortnight so we have evenings alone every night now) I thought we would have another good evening. I even texted him to tell him I loved him today. I want to feel close. I have blown it though.

Tonight he comes in and sits on sofa having made a cup of tea (he came home early). I thought OK and sat and drank cup of tea with him. I gave him a new book (published today by one of his favourite authors). He said thank you, but no hug no eye contact no nothing. Ah well...maybe he has gone off that author. I got up when I had finished tea and started sorting out washing etc. He got up and did some...but only after I had asked. In the meantime I had asked him for his credit card so I could go food shopping (my account is totally empty). I was doing a list and planning tea, putting another load in etc and he was back on sofa watching television. The boys started fighting. I could hear them and eventually he heard them and responded by saying the middle lad could not go and watch him play football. I flipped - then what do I do; take cross boys to supermarket, stay and supervise? (Bear in mind I am supposed to be doing a full time job from home despite the school holidays....)

It all deteriorated and I yelled about everything. I went to the local garage for food and will do supermarket another time (I only needed for tonight some veg and loo roll etc). Got back and he was taking middle boy to football with him.

I am just so pissed off. He only thinks of himself and I told him that. At the weekend I told him I found having sex with him hard (crap was the word I used as I explained that I feel that he is bored by me - you should have seen some of the things he said about other woman) as I did not feel loved or attractive - not one more thing has he said about this. He had his hair cut today and I told him how nice it looks. Surely he could find something to compliment me on even if only my nails which are looking pretty good at the moment. All he said when I coloured my hair (a few days later and after prompting) was that it was OK not as good as hairdressers but needs must when we are broke.

HW I do NOT want him to stop sport. I just want to feel as though I would come first if anything was awry.

I know I have created this life by just going along with it all the years. Yes it is different now. I just to feel loved valued and secure (albeit that he was selfish). I no longer feel any of those things. Everything is different now.

I drove back from shop thinking again about asking him to leave. I know he won't go, he has no where to go. I am scared too. Suppose I tell him to go and he does. It will break my heart. And the boys they will hate it.

I read that thread about what husband's did that make their wives feel loved. I get a cup of tea and a cuddle every morning but I was still so jealous. The cuddle feels like a chore. I really want to feel like I did.

OP posts:
Gonnabehappy · 15/04/2010 18:30

He does know I do not want him to play so much sport - because I would like us to do things together. He knows I would like him to ask me out. He has done that once in the last year; and then I had to arrange baby sitter.

OP posts:
HappyWoman · 15/04/2010 19:08

So he knows and yet he still cant/wont do the things he KNOWS you want.
Why is that? Have you asked him why?

Or have you just excused this as 'well thats just what he is like - hes always been like that'.

He really does need to be challenged as to why when he knows what you need he still chooses to ignore.

Why do you want him to do sport?? Really think about this - I bet it is for some reason other than you!! Maybe because you think he 'should' to keep fit (thats not for you really is it?) There are many ways he can keep fit anyway. Because it gets him out of the house - yes again under normal circumstances that would be fine, but at the moment you need to feel far more important than that dont you?

All of this could be explored in therapy - still no way of going?

I am also curious when you say - you want to ask him to leave but you are scared that he will and you will be heartbroken.
Are you scared because he will not put up the 'fight' to stay to prove to you how much he loves you? I can empathise with that.
It sounds as if you are not really ready to break free of the old marriage - and i could see that i may have been in your situation. I really had given up on my marriage and started divorce proceedings. So when he did come back begging i really did call all the shots (well pretty much anyway) But i do feel that had I not got to that point we may not have recovered.
I do believe there is a process - just as there seems to be a script for the men. And I am trying to get you to the point where you know you could go it alone without too much fear. Only then do i think you will be strong enough to start 'giving' to the marriage again.

We have both learned so much about how we work as a team - one of the things that my h still finds hard is that he is quite controlling - normally this works in our favour as we do tend to get a lot of things done - he is not a ditherer. But occassionally he will want to get his own way and just go ahead - he used to be able to convince me that i had agreed - but now i can spot this and actually point it out to him. I will say 'why are you asking my opinion when you are going to go ahead with XYZ anyway?' He used to get cross but now we see it as something we can laugh at (well most of the time anyway).

Gonna - keep talking and never doubt what you are feeling and thinking - your feelings really do matter. You are still on that rollercoaster of emotions but that is ok too.

Gonnabehappy · 15/04/2010 19:14

Eldest son keeps hugging me and telling me everything will be ok. I don't want this. I don't them supporting me. I am tearful but holding on. Thanks HW I just don't know what to think

OP posts:
HappyWoman · 15/04/2010 19:32

Listen to him gonna - things will be ok. You will be ok.
Once you believe you dont NEED him anymore.

Also dont worry about your sons too much - my 2 are fine my eldest knew a lot of what went on and i was worried he would lose respect for me - i dont think he did but he did for his dad. They still have their moments - only now i dont feel i have to defend h.

Take some time to try to work out what you do think - there is no rush - hopefully over time it will click.
But like i said before you cant while you are clinging to your old marriage. Ditch that one and then start again with rules you can live with. It is not easy but surely you h would welcome a new marriage too - one where you are happy too.
Can you not write down a few rules that you would like to bring to your new marriage for you.

Here are some to get you started.

Date night once a month - take it in turns to arrange baby sitter and choose venue.
One day where you dont have to do any cooking - let him and the boys do it.
To be complimented each day - can be on anything hair/clothes/meal/
A lie in once a week

Anyway get the idea?? Think of some for YOU now (you will probably want to do some of these for him anyway).

Gonnabehappy · 16/04/2010 09:30

If you do this sort of thing, make a promise to compliment for example, how do you believe it?

This week has been tough. Am smoking again and have decided to tackle weight not fags next week. When walking makes my feet hurt I know I am too big.

He has kissed me and told me he loves me before going to work. This used to make my day, make me feel all gooey inside. That lasted over 20 years. Do you think I can feel like that with him again? I miss it.

OP posts:
WhenwillIfeelnormal · 16/04/2010 13:46

Gonna, there is so much wrong here it is difficult to know where to start.

I'll start with your H though. He knows that you don't believe he loves you, finds you attractive, or that he wants you, not OW. He knows he's never told you why he treated you so badly and why he had an affair. He knows you're hurting and that you need help. He knows that pulling his weight domestically and putting you first would help enormously. He knows that showing genuine sorrow and contrition would help more than anything. He knows that getting some therapy of his own would help him to face up to his selfishness.

Despite all of this knowledge, he does nothing to give you what you need to help you.

You know that the root of your problems is low self-esteem, little self-respect, a passive-aggressive way of dealing with problems, a lack of assertiveness and an expectation that your happiness will be defined by your marriage and not other life enhancers such as friends, absorbing hobbies, work that you adore.

You seem able to convince yourself that you can put up with him with all his many flaws and that you won't end the relationship. That's a shame, but if you really cannot let go, then you've got to find a way to live with that choice.

So it seems that you've got to work on yourself and build a life which doesn't revolve around him and the boys. My self-esteem is defined (and always was) by things other than my marriage. My work, my professional reputation, my mothering, my friendship skills. I derive joy from all sorts of things and not just my marriage and my family. My H knows all this and it is why he respects me.

I don't mother him - our view is that building a home and a family is a shared enterprise and we all help eachother out. If I'd been invited out somewhere like you were last night, it wouldn't even occur to me to cancel, especially if I didn't go out often. I would have said I was going and asked him to stay in, or sort a babysitter. Childcare is not my responsibility, it is shared.

However he cannot read your mind. You didn't tell him about your invitation and didn't tell him that you needed him to be in last night. You didn't tell him that you needed him to clear that washing now. You didn't ask him to do the shopping. When he didn't read your mind and failed to pick up on your sighs and no doubt huffing and puffing, you exploded. This is classic passive aggressive behaviour and it is infuriating to live with.

From your H's point of view, what does he see? He sees a woman who makes his life comfortable and he no doubt thinks you are a great mother. But does he respect you? He sees you acting like a doormat towards this friend who takes but rarely gives and sees you forgiving that same friend (and him) for behaving inappropriately with one another. It sounds like this woman haunts your home most evenings.

He sees a woman who constantly needs to be asked to go out and have some fun and who puts her needs last every time.

Putting yourself first occasionally and building a separate life that brings you joy actually builds respect in others.

It will take a lot of practice, but if you worked on expressing your wants and needs in direct and clear terms, it would help build this respect. Learn to say "No, that's not acceptable" or "No, I am going to do this" or "No, this is what I want".

You seem to live a life full of dropped hints, suggestions rather than requests and you seem to expect him to read your mind. You in turn try to read his, rather than asking him what he thinks or feels.

HappyWoman · 16/04/2010 18:02

As always whenwills post is fantastic.

I can empathise with you though gonna - i used to cancel things then feel resentment because i felt h had put his life first. Whenwill is right he cant read your mind - you have to tell him.
I think you are scared to be that assertive person in case your h questions you about your change. He is so used to you being a doormat that he probably has no idea who you are either - how sad is that?

You ask 'will you ever feel the same love again?'
Sorry to say i dont think you will - at first you will sad about that and possibly angry too, you will question why you cant feel that anymore too. That 'fairytale' feeling has been shattered and gone forever. Its ok to grieve for that but it wont ever come back.

However it can be replaced by a new love - a respect and feeling of being part of the best team ever - a team that can beat anything. It is no longer a blind love - but a far more powerful love that is not scared or will put up with anything.

I think you want the impossible gonna because you just dont believe that there is anything better than you had - there is you know, but first you have to love yourself.

Forget trying to get that love back and go and find a way to love yourself now - go and find some new hobbies and find a way to be able to tell your h what you really need.

I also wonder if he is not helping you with this because he is actually scared he will lose you. He will certainly have to do some work to keep you.

Good luck - you can do this but dont rely on h to do it - do it yourself anyway.

Gonnabehappy · 17/04/2010 23:01

Ouch. Still here but thinking x

OP posts:
HappyWoman · 18/04/2010 08:31

Sorry gonna
but really dont want to sound harsh - I know it sounds that way.

All the woman i know who have survived and come out of an affair situation have said the same thing,
You do have to 'give up' on your old marriage to be able to move forward.
All the rules have changed.

now if you h wants that too he can -but he has to understand that the rules have changed, You need to tell him they have changed.

So what are you going to do now?

Have you seen a solicitor yet? If not go and get yourself some advice - work out how you will survive - this will be good for you anyway - any manner of things can happen that will mean you have to be alone. I know you have said in the past you could not afford to run 2 homes - so dont worry about his just worry about yours - i think you will be surprised just how you will manage it.

Then start to see your life for YOU - of course you will have the day to day running of the house - for you and dc (try to now ignore those things you did to make h life easier). Concentrate on your needs. I would say you need at least one night off and away from the house. That means leaving the supper to h to do too - let him have to plan that. Even if you dont have anything to do as such just get out and visit a friend for a chat. Give your h the responsibility for a change.

I know these are hard things but i remember my h thinking that i did very little - when he started his new life alone he did not pay a single bill . He found it very difficult to manage even himself let alone have the children. I also realised that i had made life too easy for him.
Getting his 'things' ready for him too. I would make sure there was food in if i was not going to be there ect.
Now we have a much more even division of chores and responsility.

He will be angry with these changes - let him - it will show you that he fears losing the control he has on you.

Come on gonna - time for a spring clean for you.

Gonnabehappy · 18/04/2010 09:58

Had a bit of a family crisis yesterday. I took on the role of the dependable one, the person who saw through the crap and said things how they were. I reported back to family members, both my generation andabove and got I kick out of everyone saying how fab I was. All a bit of a game, a game that resulted in me being praised and validated. I ambegining to think more about me and what I am. It is hard to do this without hiding in a black hole and upping the antidepressants.

Tomorow term starts. This always feels like a kick start. From tomorrow no wine in evenings on my own during week. Also being careful what I eat. I am smoking like a trooper again going let that go for the moment. I also need to work on a routine for me. I work at home and have totally lost the writing habit. It is good that my friend is away for a little. I want to start my own thing fitted only round my family.

Good weekend on the whole. Husband and I are talkng more than in past. Even if much of it is about politics which is something we have opposite views on!

My head is spinning; low self esteem, passive-aggressive, co-dependent etc etc. I am begining to focus on me not him I think.

OP posts:
Gonnabehappy · 21/04/2010 09:16

Another 'crisis' last night, and the boys heard and it can only have added to their pain.

I went for a long long walk; saw proper wild fox (not those ratty beasts we get around our bins!, deer, wood anemones and the start of a bluebell explosion. Came home and too tired to do tea so I went and got fish and chips for husband and I (I had forgotten how expensive that was!).

Then husband announces he will be away next Monday night, a work thing. I had seen the email last week when checking his phone (for various reasons I was worried about share dealing starting up again). The email list did not include ow. Anyway I was upset - and to be honest I don't feel that justified. He could do whatever he wants without going away for the night with work colleagues.

So we revisit everything including how hurt I am (this weekend is the anniversary of me finding out my life was based on lies - as said before such a shame Easter generates two anniversaries!). I don't think he has a clue about the date though; I don't know.

During argument at night and calmer talk again this morning he repeatedly said he loves me and would never hurt me again. He also said he had been dreading telling me about the work do, thought we had been getting on better this week - we have made a real effort to chat to each other and smile at each other. He said that saying all those things to me hurt him. I replied it was his choice. He intimated that he had to; he had made his decision (to leave us) and had to be cruel because I stupidly kept begging him to return to his family.

I just don't know how we can keep going at this. Nothing changes. I feel so stupid about my behaviour over past couple of years and believe that even if he does not have ow now he will. Given the state of our relationship it seems almost inevitable as WhenWill pointed out.

Life has changed beyond all recognition. You are right HW we do need a new relationship but I don't know where to start. He says the right things but actions speak louder than words sometimes. He seems to think I am now stupid because I cannot trust him and relax about my life. He does have a point. How long will I make him pay for his mistake and make him feel bad? H says he does not want to hurt me and the boys, but i have heard that before. I feel as though he is losing patience with me and the more I feel that the more I shut off. It is such a vicious circle.

OP posts:
HappyWoman · 21/04/2010 17:09

Gonna
So sorry for you.

You cannot carry on like this - it seems to be a tourture for you.

Why is he going out next week? I am sorry to say nothing is more important than family and he is just not doing enough is he?
However important that work do is it can be cancelled - my h goes to very few now, and it was ages until he did.

I know exactly where you are coming from and he just does not get it does he.

You want him to not want to go of his own choice - that is perfectly normal.

However he will 'ask your permission' to go - if you give it then he will make you feel bad if you do not like it - if you say in clear terms you do not want him to go - he will mope about and lay the guilt on you.

Ok - deep breath - state very clearly how you FEEL (doesnt matter whether it is logical or not). You dont want him to go - no other reasons are needed.
Now the hard bit is - what will you do if he has such little respect for you that he will disregard how you feel?

I think you need to make a clear choice now - what is the saying? 'making the wrong decision is better than not making a decision at all'

Be strong now and you will reap the rewards - i promise you will.

He may well shout and get cross - (just like a child would). I even predict that he will threaten to leave - as he knows you fear this more than anything. Now what type of man would threaten you with the thing he knows you fear most????
Stay calm - what are you more afraid of - him leaving or staying the way you are.

This could be your moment now to take the control you need to go forward. Please dont be scared of him leaving you any longer.

If you do this - dont break down - come on here and ask for help - you will feel all the emotions but you will survive.

Of course he may well agree and stay in and help you instead - then plan a nice night for him instead.

Good luck gonna - think about how you would advice someone on this one too.

I am willing you to take that control now.

Miggsie · 21/04/2010 17:34

Gonna, you sound so unhappy.
You have actually out-grown your husband.
The affair changed you, and gave you a new perspective and you have changed your world view and wish to move on.

He wishes to go back to how it was "before" and not change in any way.

This is a fundemental sticking point.

Even if you accpet blame for all things, you know it is a lie, and underneath you cannot accept it, you are actually suffering cognitive dissonance, where you are trying intellectually rationalise behaviours and situations that you know by instinct are wrong.

You cannot pretend nothing ever happened, but this is what your H wants, so you can't resolve it by anything that YOU do. HE has to do something, and, as others have pointed out, he does not seem very motivated to change his fundemntal behaviours day to day.

HappyWoman · 21/04/2010 17:59

well said.
He will argue that he has been 'punished' enough - all words words words........

What about the daily 'punishment' you have now - or that just silly little gonna being a silly woman??????? After all how many times does he have to TELL you - are you so stupid you dont believe him???????

AnyFucker · 21/04/2010 18:20

Gonna, at the risk of repeating myself to you and being really rather irritating, it is OK if you want to call time on your marriage

Gonnabehappy · 21/04/2010 20:22

He has said he will not go to the dinner and overnight hotel treat. You are right I need to plan a good evening on Monday.

Don't laugh but I thought we were nearing the date anniversary f me being aware of the crappy state of my life - but I was wrong! Why on earth is Easter such a movable feast?!! Don't worry I do know why really and feel a little stupid now!

I really want this to work AF. I really really do. I do know I need to become more independent etc and I will work on this. I have thought long and hard; I am not passive-aggressive, except sometimes with him because I am afraid to say what I want. Afraid I will not get it. Not me per se though (unlike some of other labels applied to me) so must stop immediately. I asked him to sort washing before I went walking this evening, and he did.

HW I cannot even begin to tell you what your understanding and encouragement mean to me. Thank you form the bottom of my heart.

Migsie - yes I think I am beginning to outgrow my relationship. I hope he will allow the relationship to grow with me. I really want us to be happy together and some of this means I need to stop dwelling on the past and try and move on.

OP posts:
HappyWoman · 21/04/2010 21:39

sounds goods gonna

Now just you make sure you still to this - i am glad he is not going out on monday - it is a small sacrifice to make.

Even if it is a small thing make sure you do something on monday - make a lovely meal, bottle of wine how about a funny dvd that you can both share? and maybe a nice bath.
How about making a pact with yourself not to even mention the affair. It will feel a bit odd and awkward but just try.
Then on tuesday write a diary entry to yourself - that will be your special time and no-one will ever be able to take that away.
One night off for you.

Keep talking and good luck - you will be ok just stay strong.

Gonnabehappy · 22/04/2010 11:00

He has not threatened to leave. On the contrary he tells me all the time he will never leave again. I am sure he feels trapped.

Walking at lunchtime today and doing housework now. Much stop procrastinating and get some work done!

OP posts:
HappyWoman · 22/04/2010 11:30

So he is constantly telling you he will not leave but you feel he is trapped?
Surely that is HIS problem?????
Dont feel responsible for his feelings - he is a grown man and can (and has) made his own choices.

It is hard but please dont feel bad that he feels trapped - do you think you have done anything to make him feel 'trapped'?

You dont have to believe him - that is a trust issue for you to accept. But so far his actions are that he is staying with you an really until he shows you otherwise you will either have to accept that or force the issue.
Anything you think of that makes you feel that way - is there anything he says or does?
I wonder if you are overthinking for him - maybe that is the way you would feel in his position but it is him not you.

You have to decide whether YOU can stay in a marriage where you dont trust him?
I personally dont think you have to have 100% trust in all areas - but you have to decide what you will tolerate for yourself.

I also wonder whether you are wanting to push him - so that you can be proved 'right' - 'see i knew he would find ow or that he was lying when he said he would stay with me and didnt want to leave'. Have a think about that one as i think we can all fall into that trap.
It would mean you would have to admit that you are 'wrong' on this occassion, and that is never an easy thing to do.

Also i do think you can now take that control and use it to your advantage - i am sure your h feels that and maybe he does feel a bit trapped by that. I know my h does a bit - he says he now fears i would leave him whereas in the past he never felt that - weird as i have not done anything to make him feel that. I hate to think my h doubting me but that is up to him - i can only live the life i want now - i know i wont leave but how can i make him feel that - I cant - and its not my problem. Maybe that is what you h is doing and feeling.

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 22/04/2010 11:47

I went back to your original post on this thread Gonna - the one where you were saying that you still didn't know "why?" and all you got from him was a "I don't know"....

This will be a running sore for you, I'm afraid. You don't know why this catastrophe that has changed your life and your personality, happened. You therefore think it could easily happen again - and I think you're right.

You suspect he won't leave because he's got nowhere better to go right now, but that if he got a better offer - or if perhaps the OW split from her H and asked your H back, he would go.

Until you get some proper analysis and reassurance from your H that this is not the case, I think you'll go on living in a state of fear and worry. Despite your user name, you won't be happy at all. You'll carry on your life with these competing dialogues in your head - the dissonance referred to downthread.

Sometimes you'll berate yourself for not getting over this and tell yourself you've got to be grateful for your lot, on others you will have a meltdown because you've never had any real answers and you hate him for not giving you any - and you for not insisting on them.

This is no life Gonna.

I would do virtually anything to earn the money to get therapy in order to avoid living a life like that.

HappyWoman · 22/04/2010 12:11

totally agree whenwill
Gonna - i too fear that as time goes by you will hate yourself for not getting it sorted and the longer it goes on the harder that will be.
I dont think i did things in the correct order - with hindsight i would do things differently now.

But i also think my h is grateful to me for insisting on counselling and for clearly setting my demands on the table (like i said some of them took me a while).

I say what have you got to lose gonna? - Either he does this with you and you have the marriage you want or he goes as he cant handle that - in which case you will have saved yourself some future heartache and the pain you are so obviously in now.

Go for it gonna - trust us on this one .

countingto10 · 22/04/2010 17:18

Gonna, just wanted to let you know that I am thinking of you and wish you luck. Been lurking but felt unable to post as I have been working my way through a few demons myself - I think it is all the awful memories of this time last year and I just needed to be sad, angry etc. DH thought i was going to up and leave at one point.

Anyway, I have worked through some things in my head and am feeling much more positive - the weather helps and the kids being back at school .

Take care.

Gonnabehappy · 22/04/2010 21:02

Am very scared of your responses. I don't think I want to have therapy and learn what I am really like.

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