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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Please help a very sad and confused new dad

475 replies

LostBoy · 21/02/2010 11:25

Hello all
I am writing this post out of shher desperation in the hope that someone will be able to offer me some helpful advice.
I have been with my wife for 8 years and we have had what i would consider a normal healthy loving relationship, Of course we have had ups and downs and rows and disagreements but no more so than any other couple I know.
We have recently become parents (9 months ago) to a beautiful baby girl and things at first were fine we were a very happy little family and were getting along really great working as a team learning how to be a family.
Our daughter had slept in her cot from the day we come home from the hospital and would wake on average 3 times a night for feeds.
we both shared all responsibilites and were supporting one another really well and really enjoying being parents.
However when the baby was around 6 months old she got a bad cold and was very poorly and upset and would not sleep without being cuddled so we had her in bed with us which was fine and we both discussed that we would not let her get used to this and as soon as she was better she would go back to her cot as our bed is not big enough for all three of us and both me and my wife were not sleeping as well as a result.
However when the baby was well agian my wife refused to put her back in to her cot and insisted the baby sleep in with us saying that the baby would no longer sleep in the cot which was untrue as I had been putting her down to sleep in the cot but my wife was then getting her out of the cot and bringing her in to bed with us.
I tried to explain to her that I thought this was not a good thing to be doing as it was a big step backwards for the baby and none of us were sleeping as well anymore.
She accused me of not wanting the baby in our bed so because I wanted sex which was totally not the case as I love my wife very much and would like nothing more than to be able to make love to her but she has told me that she dosent feel ready too and that is fine with me and I would never ever try to pressure her in to something she did not want and I told her this and that I was more than happy to wait as long as she needed.
ut then she started to accuse me of only doing stuff for her helping her and being nice to her so that she would have sex with me, she also began to accuse me of thinking things and would make her mind up what my intentions were and what i was going to say before I had had a chance to say anything choosing always to see the bad side of whatever I said or twst my words and actions in to something really ugly,
I love my wife with all my heart and it is deeply upsetting for me to hear the spiteful and nasty stuff she says about me and accuses me of.
It got so bad thet she would not let me even hug kiss or touch her and whenever I showed any sign of affection towards her she would get angry,
She is seeing a CBT councellor for post natal depression and we have been going to relate together but she is unwilling to try to make it work and it has now come to the stage where she is saying she dosent love me and has made me move out of our flat and I an now staying with friends.
I have continued to tell her I love her and that I will always be there for her and tried to make her feel better about herself but all i get in return is anger and spitefull comments.
She is almost unrecognosible as the woman I Love and behaves so completely irratonally and unreasonably but refuses to see this and blames me for everything and gets angry over nothing and will use anything to try to start a fight with me. I am at a total loss as to what to do now.
I love my wife so much and she has given me the most amazing thing in the world all I want is to be able to love them both care for them be there and be a family. But she has got so hostile and aggressive towards me now that I am scared for her and cannot stand to be around her and see her this way.
Our daughter is upset that I am not around and although I try to be ther as much as I can my wife is making it impossible for me to vist and refuses to let me be alone with the baby.
please please help me I have never felt so sad and desperate.

OP posts:
sayithowitis · 21/02/2010 23:50

I think this has to be the worst thread I have read in a long time. Once again, the incredible double standards on MN have raised their ugly head. It does us no credit ladies. The unkind, sniping and downright nasty comments towards the OP are appalling. Maybe he hasn't handled things perfectly, but who does? If a woman had posted this problem about her DH, would we have been questioning her and making her out to be the one in the wrong in the way that some posters have done with LostBoy? Yes, we only have one side of the story, but that is true of every story on MN. I have seen threads in the past where someone has dared to question a female Op and has been told that we should take her story on trust. Why is it any different just because a man has posted the OP?

It is a real shame that someone who has come here asking for help has been treated in this way.

bluetits · 21/02/2010 23:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MadameDefarge · 21/02/2010 23:51

Yup Dittany. The poor diddums daddy brigade are astonishing....

Id love to know what the actual circumstances were that led to the chucking out of said dad...

Must have been extreme, as most mums, even with PND, would nibble their own legs off rather than be left with a new born by themselves....

EcoMouse · 21/02/2010 23:52

You've hit the nail on the head Madame.

OP's condescending attempts to control (as apparent in the OP WRT co-sleeping) have exacerbated the wedge between he and his DW and possibly her condition. He seems too arrogant to acknowledge this may be the case.

He tried to explain to DW that "none of us were sleeping". He tried to tell his DW how well she slept or not?!

bluetits · 21/02/2010 23:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

choosyfloosy · 21/02/2010 23:54

Cor blimey Lostboy it sounds like you are having a really really rough time. I feel for you. You sound profoundly shocked at the change in your wife and who can blame you.

The baby wipes story sounds as if she is behaving like a four-year-old tbh. Clearly there is a lot going on with her. I wonder if she thought things would be marvellous once you were out of the picture and she had more 'space', and she is angry and frustrated to find that - what a surprise - she is still just as miserable as ever and even more tired! The baby wipes thing sounded like she is casting round for any reason she can find to turn you into the villain of the piece. 'he didn't even have the baby wipes in place when he started to change the nappy...' This is ridiculous stuff.

The only element of hope I can find in that is that she clearly isn't any more happy without you than she was with you, and that the baby wipes story suggests to me that she is still very mentally involved with you to blame you so much. I don't see any reason to 'accept' that you have to live apart from your child at the moment. I do think, though, that you should consult a lawyer about your rights, provided that you DO NOT talk about this with your wife just yet.

Are you still both going to Relate at the moment? Has the counsellor said anything, suggested anything?

jasper · 21/02/2010 23:56

sayithowitis well put.
Nest of vipers once more

dittany · 21/02/2010 23:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Dominique07 · 22/02/2010 00:00

"What i want is for him to just give me a quick kiss, and a cuddle, keep his hands to himself then GO AWAY.
If your wife feels like me and has PND on top of that then i imagine its been maginified 100fold and she's held on to that anger response."
This comment really reminded of how I felt when my DS was a young baby.

It sounds like you could do with writing her a letter, to explain that you really love her, and your daughter and you want to make it work. Explain that you thought you were being helpful by putting the baby in and out of the cot, as you thought this was what she wanted.
Are you both going to these Relate appointments together?
That sounds like the best environment to talk about all of this, and also to bring up that you want regular contact with your daughter.

MadameDefarge · 22/02/2010 00:00

well jaspers, why you think all this lavender water brow mopping of the OP is in order when it has been very kindly put to him that he might not have handled it best, and then got really shitty with a poster who was moderate is beyond me.

He might be Mr Lovely. She might be bonkers. He might be Mr controlling Twat and she is being pushed to her limits by him. Or it might be a mixture of the two.

But when he got shitty with Math then all bets are off. Being sarcstic and nasty when someone is trying to help does him no favours.

MadameDefarge · 22/02/2010 00:01

aw, Mr henley, we miss him so!

dittany · 22/02/2010 00:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Quattrocento · 22/02/2010 00:10

I do think that the OP has a hearing problem

"we both discussed that we would not let her get used to this (cosleeping)"

I'm reading this as meaning you pontificated and tried to lay down the law

"However when the baby was well agian my wife refused to put her back in to her cot and insisted the baby sleep in with us"

This means your wife wants to cosleep. I'd be flipping furious if anyone had tried to stop me cosleeping whenever I wanted to. Your choice of the word 'refuse' is interesting. It suggests again that you were trying to make her do something she didn't want to do.

"I tried to explain to her that I thought this was not a good thing to be doing as it was a big step backwards"

You tried to lay down the law again.

"She accused me of not wanting the baby in our bed so because I wanted sex which was totally not the case as I love my wife very much and would like nothing more than to be able to make love to her ..."
QED

You've taken a lot of flak, Lostboy, but until/unless you fix the hearing problem, I think you'll struggle to fix the issue.

MadameDefarge · 22/02/2010 00:11

blimey, I missed to shotgun update....

Lostboy, maybe dadnet might be of more use. And before all you nest of vipers accusers get going, you might want to take on board to anthro-pyschological aspect of the dominant majority at play within the the minority safe space...

hatwoman · 22/02/2010 00:22

lostboy more than anything you need to listen to your wife. she is the one who can help you. yes she has pnd, and yes she is ill. but she hasn't lost the plot, she hasn't lost her thoughts, she hasn't lost her feelings. I'm not saying that you think those things it's just that when I was depressed (not pnd) I found nothing more infuriating than having my thoughts and feelings delegitimised and "blamed" on my depression. they were very real - based on real things in the outside world, not just seratonin levels in my head.I think you have to accept that this may well be the case for your wife. she may well not be acting irrationally at all - she may be reacting in a wholly rational way to the situation around her, as she sees it.

it will take a long time - but you need to fix this, as a team, as equals. others have pointed out that perhaps you should stop trying to "fix" things. I agree - but it's not the fixing that I think is a problem, it's the idea of you as the agent of the fixing.such an approach belies your claims to equality in your relationship. your wife didn't surrender her equality because she's got pnd.

the co-sleeping thing is quite possibly a good example of your tendency to be the fixer. you did seem to undermine her, to set the rules for defining what works well. If this is reflected elsewhere in your relationship then it could be a very significant contributor to her seeming to turn against you, as it were. I'm making huge leaps and guesses here, I do admit, but I can imagine her ffeeling very frustrated, and not listened to.

hatwoman · 22/02/2010 00:24

cross-posted with quattro. we said it differently but I think we both picked up on different aspects of the same thing. I totally agree with all her examples. she's right about "refused" - a very interesting choice of words

ItsGraceAgain · 22/02/2010 00:29

I've read the whole thread. I'd better start by reminding anyone: I'm not a mother. I have cared for many babies, but not had my own. I am aware that the bond between mother & baby is unique.

LostBoy, if you're still here, I do see the point(s) your critics picked up on. The arrival of a new baby is incredibly disruptive; most women aren't prepared for the sheer chaos & exhaustion it brings, and they have at least been warned! It's very, very usual for a first-time father to feel angry & resentful at the changes to his life and his wife: to resent the new baby at the same time as you love her is quite normal.

I wonder if, perhaps, you've been unable to resolve that duality within yourself - acknowledging the love but not the resentment? It's an awkward balance to hold (don't worry, it's much easier next time round). The urge to try and "fix" the chaos & emotional confusion can be very strong. I think this is what the others were trying to highlight for you.

It cannot be controlled, only accepted and managed. I wonder if you've spoken to many other fathers about this? Each will have a different take on it, but I guarantee they'll tell you of tiredness & mayhem. The same shock takes hold of the mother, too, you know. Add extreme sleep deprivation and sudden floods of changing hormones; it's hardly surprising if depression ensues.

PND is no different from any other depression, except in its profundity - and its short duration. "Short" can mean anything up to two years, I'm afraid. It can't be fixed; only accepted & managed. Medication and counselling should help very much with her 'blackness' but only time will make the chaos go away!

In all, this is just a different way of trying to tell you it'd be best to simply accept the way things are for now. The new-baby phase will be over soon ... create happy memories of this time, even if they are tired, messy memories! I think your wife needs gentleness from you. This is a temporary phase; don't think it's always going to be like this. I really feel you'll regret NOT fully embracing your daughter's baby stage, with compassion for both your wife and yourself.

noassociation · 22/02/2010 03:29

Read the whole thread and although I don't know if I have had PND (had two children and currently pregnant with third) but I have suffered depression on and off for years, with some often very severe episodes.

Not sure if anything I say is helpful but thought I'd throw my thoughts in there for good measure

Is it not so often the case in relationships, or so we are told, that women wish their men would change (adapt) and men wish their women would stay the same (things be as they were). That men want to fix things and women want empathy or to be understood.

But having a baby/children changes so much.. Plus, women don't want their men to fix them and get annoyed if they try (without fully understanding what is broke isn't that just desperately trying to make it all go away!)

This is age-old stuff I know, terrible generalisations too, but all the same....

Anyway as I was saying... naturally problems in the relationship are heightened and dynamics shift, or at least try to when something huge like looking after a tiny person with all the reality and responsibility of parenting, changes everything.

I know Lostboy feels all was fine before the PND but the wife may not feel have the same take on that. She may have thought "things will be different/better" when we are a family etc, the usual sort of thing. She wouldn't necessarily have felt the need to address issues she had in the relationship for example, before baby, as they didn't seem worth it as she was happy to accept certain ways. Perhaps old buried issues are now no longer bearable. So Lostboy may not have known.
It may have been just literally all fine of course, and maybe just new issues and problems transpired purely through such a change as a baby.

Just because she was happy before doesn't mean she is unreasonable to be unhappy now.

It's very possible there are big power struggles going on... both wanting to control..

Anyway..
The wife may need time to figure out what she wants and needs in her new role (I know they are both the baby's parents but she still is an individual) ..she could be fustrated, becoming easily angered, and then developed PND on top of that.
She may well be very lost right now, especially if she was happy before and had been for 9 years previously with Lostboy and now suddenly she finds he/the relationship drives her crazy (throwing the wipes and shouting for example).

For the record having a "strop", being moody, making catty remarks etc is not something I'm proud of, but it is me under stress and struggling mentally with my depression. It's embarrassing and I feel overwhelmed like a hormonal teenager but I will defend with vigiour that I am in no way a danger to my children and I am not abusive!
If a grown-up hasn't the ability to deal with temper tantrums or not face real-life outbursts then I don't know how they'll get through life. Kids cope with worse at school! Parents cope with worse from teenagers.. I do think a little perspective is needed. She threw wet wipes at him..not the baby. She could have snarled something worse at him too. For whatever reason, she had had enough (reasonable or not), it was better she told him to get out than beat him with the wetwipes! There is no reason that another way of seeing the baby can't be arranged. She isn't completely unwilling otherwise she wouldn't even go to the relate sessions. The issue certainly seems directly related to the baby anyhow..

Again I digress sorry....I am in no way justifying her behaviour or saying it is okay to be angry and express her anger in certain ways, I am only saying this as Lostboy mentioned he wished to try to understand or see where she's coming from.
Loving her regardless of this new behaviour would suggest no matter how "wrong" she appears to be acting, it is important to him to try and "see" it from her perspective, however difficult that may be.

I do want to say that she if she does have a mental illness (and I would say this with the genders switched round) that her mental well being should take priority over getting back the relationship Lostboy once knew or judging her actions instead of acknowledging her feelings. I appreciate this can be incredibly difficult and painful but strength of character and not feeling sorry for oneself or trying to control a situation that does not require it, would earn most peoples respect and admiration.

One thing that struck me throughout the thread was hearing "I love my wife so much" and "I keep telling her how much I love her" and saying how he tries to show her affection, showing he loves her and cares so much etc.
I know for me, hearing my OH express such things ALL THE TIME just makes me feel ten times worse...it's hard to explain but how I feel has nothing to do with feeling unloved.
I KNOW he loves me..dearly...I get it.
It's not helpful I'm afraid, and even when I try and tell my OH that it dis-stresses me him declaring this so often, he says he just wants to let me know, that its for my benefit, to make me feel better.
But how is it for me when I don't want to hear it, when I say I don't NEED to hear it.
I suggest it's because he wants to REMIND me, because he feels insecure or worried and want's to make sure I know it.
It certainly feels as if he's emotionally manipulating me in some way, even if he professes differently.
Now I'm aware that's somewhat unfair but for me, when he REMINDS me, I feel if I do not show and express that same said love, that he will feel unloved, that am cold and unfeeling and I feel guilty some more.
In my mind he's telling me he feels insecure and I feel bad that I have no energy or inclination (because I am depressed) to reassure him. So it feels like pressure and sometimes in a paranoid state, I feel it's a form of control...to not hurt him because he loves me!
Feelings spiral out of control with depression, adding feelings is the worse thing to do for me. Hence I often do not want to speak to him, listen to him, have him touch and I avoid eye contact. I can want a hug so badly and yet as soon as he embraces me I suddenly feel and overthink it, feel suffocated (irrationally) and need to pull away just as desperately as I had wanted the hug. It's hard not to take depression personnally I know but it IS an illness.

Something for Lostboy to consider. It may be nothing like that for her, but felt an alternative view on the usual, reassure her you love her theme, as I really don't think the issue for her will be she feels unloved. Especially if he's been showing and telling her all along.

Sorry for the lengthy contribution. Hope it helps Good luck Lostboy, sounds like you need it!

violethill · 22/02/2010 06:30

Let's hope next time a woman posts saying her DH has kicked her out of the house, been aggressive and abusive, thrown objects across the room around a 9 month old baby, oh and refused to let her spend time alone with the baby - we see the same sort of response from some of the posters on here - ie give her a good bashing because it's her fault for not being perfect and trying hard enough.

Thought not.

Lost Boy - you may be better off seeking advice elsewhere - hope you can find somewhere where more people actually believe in equality between people.

best of luck!

KimiGaveUpStarbucks4Lent · 22/02/2010 07:17

Oh I see the dad bashing as started.

Poor man married to a woman mad as a box of frogs, ask for help and advice and gets the shit torn out of him.

Some times I think someo f the people on her are plain thick because they are so bloody bigoted. here is a news flash...
NOT all women are nice
NOT all women are good mothers
NOT all women are good wives
and yes some women fuck up badly, make a pigs ear of everything and blame the men in their lives.

Lostboy pay no attention to the small minded sister hood of women can do no wrong,

MadameDefarge · 22/02/2010 07:30

I think is must only be in the DM and here that people still use phrases from the seventies like "man-hating"....I have never heard it used in RL.

Trillian · 22/02/2010 08:17

Lost boy I think you need to think about not being with your "wife" take legal advice and go for custody of you DD.

Your wife is very silly to have a small baby in her bed, but will only see this when she lays on her in her sleep and kills her.

Ignore the bitches here who think every woman is a victim of a man, they are a sad bunch, they tout out the same bullshit time after time.... Daily mail, blah blah blah, men are in the wrong blah blah blah, reading between the lines it is your fault blah blah blah, I think most of them do it because things are crap in their own lives but the are too weak to stand up to their men so go about having a go about every man on the planet.

If you were a woman they would be falling over them selfs to support the sisterhood and none of it would be blamed at you.

Like every time a woman comes on and says her DH/DP has left for another women, it is an out pouring of hate for the man and the other woman, when some times men leave because their wives are just not good wives, because they put up with all they can take, because they have found someone to love them, but it is always the poor wife that is in the right and the husband is a shit and the other woman is a hoe, well unless the other women is a mumsnetter then everyone here will find justification for her having an affair with a married man, but I digress, (just trying to let you get a feel for the venom pit that you have entered though).

I hope you can ignore the small minded people here, and find some help and advice.

2010aQuintessentialOdyssey · 22/02/2010 08:25

OP What do you think your wife would be posting if she were here. You dont have to tell us, but think about it.

Your story is pretty onesided. I see a long narrative which seems to be designed to put you in the best possible light, and tarnish your wife. You SAY you love her and that you want to help her, but your posts dont show it. You have been given plenty of advice, and not ONCE stopped to think, "maybe they are right, maybe I am handling this in the wrong way", instead we get MORE accounts of how bad your wife is.

If you really wanted help with your relationship, you would have been willing to listen to advice, but you are not.
And when you were faced with some criticism, you attacked a poster who was trying to help. Below the belt Sarcasm.

You have outlined to us your wives reactions, but we dont know what you said or did to provoke such responses and actions in the first place. What has made her snap? It sounds like she is just really angry with you. I think there may be an element of pnd, but I dont see abuse and I dont see mental health issues, but I do sense a woman who is pretty pissed of!

If you DO want to help your wife, ensure she has help and support, especially with her pnd, LISTEN to her and take her view into account. Dont just talk AT her. If she wants to co-sleep, then LET her. She is the one feeding the baby, and night time feeding should end soon, babies usually get enough nourishment in the day and should stop night time feeds by the age of 1 anyway.

I dont really think you have a chance of coming back to her until you admit that you have handled things wrong. You cant just talk your way of this and come up with excuses, you need to say "I am sorry, I handled this badly, I should not have insisted on the baby sleeping in the cot when you clearly wanted to co-sleep. I realize now it was the wrong thing to do. Are there any other parenting issues you feel I am overriding you on, please let me know, so we we can work out a solution which works best for US."

Or something to that effect.

I wish you the best.

KimiGaveUpStarbucks4Lent · 22/02/2010 08:29

How did you find mumsnet?
Is your wife a mumsnetter?

RealityIsMyOnlyDelusion · 22/02/2010 08:31

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